The Gospel Verses Calvinism

[Robert Pate]

No one needs to be predestinated. God in the person of Jesus Christ has perfected humanity in himself and has taken it to heaven. This is the Gospel, Hebrews 1:3.

Sin, death and the devil have been overcome and defeated by the work and person of Jesus Christ. He is the savior of the whole world. John 6:51, John 12:46-47. 1 John 2:2.

The law has been fulfilled. Sin has been atoned for. Jesus is the savior of the world. 1 John 4:14.

All who believe upon him are perfect and complete in Christ who is in heaven, Romans 10:13.

"And you are COMPLETE IN HIM," Colossians 2:10.
"By the obedience of one many SHALL MANY BE MADE RIGHTEOUS," Romans 5:19.
"If any man be in Christ he is a NEW CREATION." 2 Corinthians 5:17.
"That we might be MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM," 2 Corinthians 5:21.
"After you have suffered a while, MAKE YOU PERFECT,"

If God in the person of Jesus Christ has not defeated sin, death and the devil he is not the savior of the world and we are all still in our sins and are without hope.

When Christ was accepted back into heaven our humanity was accepted in him. He is the new Adam and representative of the human race, Romans 5:19. God in the person of Jesus Christ has reconciled the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

Salvation has been provided for all who want it, Christ is victorious over the sins of the whole world. Now, "whosoever, all, anyone, that shall call on the name of the Lord can be saved."

Salvation always has been and always will be by faith. It must be by faith, so that it can be by Christ.

 

[Tangible]

Not a Calvinist here, but I'm curious as to what you would do with these:

Acts 4:28 (Show me Acts 4)
to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Romans 8:29 (Show me Romans 8)
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 (Show me Romans 8)
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 (Show me Ephesians 1)
he predestined us[1] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[1]Or before him in love, having predestined us

Ephesians 1:11 (Show me Ephesians 1)
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Salvation always has been and always will be by faith. It must be by faith, so that it can be by Christ.

And faith is something God gives us completely apart from anything we could do, decide or deserve. It is a free gift.

 

[Hammster]

Oh, goodie. Another anti-Calvinist thread.

 

[Hammster]

Quick question for the non-Calvinists. Do you know why we believe in election and predestination?

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

No one needs to be predestinated. God in the person of Jesus Christ has perfected humanity in himself and has taken it to heaven. This is the Gospel, Hebrews 1:3.

Sin, death and the devil have been overcome and defeated by the work and person of Jesus Christ. He is the savior of the whole world. John 6:51, John 12:46-47. 1 John 2:2.

The law has been fulfilled. Sin has been atoned for. Jesus is the savior of the world. 1 John 4:14.

All who believe upon him are perfect and complete in Christ who is in heaven, Romans 10:13.

"And you are COMPLETE IN HIM," Colossians 2:10.
"By the obedience of one many SHALL MANY BE MADE RIGHTEOUS," Romans 5:19.
"If any man be in Christ he is a NEW CREATION." 2 Corinthians 5:17.
"That we might be MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM," 2 Corinthians 5:21.
"After you have suffered a while, MAKE YOU PERFECT,"

If God in the person of Jesus Christ has not defeated sin, death and the devil he is not the savior of the world and we are all still in our sins and are without hope.

When Christ was accepted back into heaven our humanity was accepted in him. He is the new Adam and representative of the human race, Romans 5:19. God in the person of Jesus Christ has reconciled the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

Salvation has been provided for all who want it, Christ is victorious over the sins of the whole world. Now, "whosoever, all, anyone, that shall call on the name of the Lord can be saved."

Salvation always has been and always will be by faith. It must be by faith, so that it can be by Christ.

I have no idea why you disagree with Calvinism then?

 

[Ghost air]

Quick question for the non-Calvinists. Do you know why we believe in election and predestination?

I also believe in ELECTION and PREDESTINATION as they are clearly biblical terms... obviously it's our understanding of election and predestination that differs.

Calvinists say that THEY were elected before the foundation of the world. This seems biblical although I think that there's a drastic difference between the two interpretations...

IMO, ELECTION means that God chose that all who would place their faith and trust in His Son, would be the elect of God, simply because CHRIST is the ELECT of God. We as individuals were NOT elect from the foundation of the world, we are chosen IN HIM from the foundation of the world... massive difference.

Eph 2 makes it clear that we were dead in trespasses and in sins, and that we were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 1 teaches that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, and AFTER we believed that we were PLACED into the body of Christ, not before that. Christ is the elect of God, and so all who are IN HIM are the elect.

WHEN were we IN HIM... the bible teaches this...

So look at the difference... election to a calvinist has nothing to do with Christ... because they believe that they were the elect BEFORE they were in Christ.. and that is biblically incorrect as far as I can see.

Obviously opinions may vary

 

[Hammster]

I also believe in ELECTION and PREDESTINATION as they are clearly biblical terms... obviously it's our understanding of election and predestination that differs.

Calvinists say that THEY were elected before the foundation of the world. This seems biblical although I think that there's a drastic difference between the two interpretations...

IMO, ELECTION means that God chose that all who would place their faith and trust in His Son, would be the elect of God, simply because CHRIST is the ELECT of God. We as individuals were NOT elect from the foundation of the world, we are chosen IN HIM from the foundation of the world... massive difference.

Eph 2 makes it clear that we were dead in trespasses and in sins, and that we were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 1 teaches that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, and AFTER we believed that we were PLACED into the body of Christ, not before that. Christ is the elect of God, and so all who are IN HIM are the elect.

WHEN were we IN HIM... the bible teaches this...

So look at the difference... election to a calvinist has nothing to do with Christ... because they believe that they were the elect BEFORE they were in Christ.. and that is biblically incorrect as far as I can see.

Obviously opinions may vary

If you had no intention of answering the question, why did you quote me? Or was that an answer and your answer was, "no, I have no idea"?

 

[Ghost air]

If you had no intention of answering the question, why did you quote me? Or was that an answer and your answer was, "no, I have no idea"?

I was not trying to read your mind... what I was trying to do was show that there are non reformed thinkers here who also hold to the biblical terms of election and predestination... imo it's not WHY you believe election and predestination - it is how you believe these things.. and I tried to highlight the difference.

 

[Hammster]

I was not trying to read your mind... what I was trying to do was show that there are non reformed thinkers here who also hold to the biblical terms of election and predestination... imo it's not WHY you believe election and predestination - it is how you believe these things.. and I tried to highlight the difference.

I can see where the confusion came. My question was in line with the OP saying we don't need to be predestinated to be saved. So maybe I should put it this way: Do you know why Calvinists hold to the view of election and predestination that we hold to? Do you understand (not agree with) the scriptures we use to support our view?

 

[Ghost air]

I can see where the confusion came. My question was in line with the OP saying we don't need to be predestinated to be saved. So maybe I should put it this way: Do you know why Calvinists hold to the view of election and predestination that we hold to? Do you understand (not agree with) the scriptures we use to support our view?

In another thread you explained to me what election means to you. I understand that. That's why I said that it's a matter of how you're interpreting the scriptures with respect to election and predestination. Of course I agree with what the bible says - what I might not always agree with is how YOU interpret them. Of course there are many things that we DO agree on...

You're obviously welcome to comment further as to WHY you believe as you do...

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[Hammster]

In another thread you explained to me what election means to you. I understand that. That's why I said that it's a matter of how you're interpreting the scriptures with respect to election and predestination. Of course I agree with what the bible says - what I might not always agree with is how YOU interpret them. Of course there are many things that we DO agree on...

You're obviously welcome to comment further as to WHY you believe as you do...

The question has to do with debate. In most cases, we see gross misrepresentations of what we believe, and have to spend countless posts defending what we believe. So based on this quote

So look at the difference... election to a calvinist has nothing to do with Christ... because they believe that they were the elect BEFORE they were in Christ.. and that is biblically incorrect as far as I can see.

I guess the answer is no, you don't know what we believe, nor why we believe it.

 

[Hammster]

Predestination is a special relationship with God.

Predestined men do God's will differently.

Not sure what you mean. Can you explain what you mean scripturally?

 

[Ghost air]

The question has to do with debate. In most cases, we see gross misrepresentations of what we believe, and have to spend countless posts defending what we believe.

Well let me tell ya, you've told us countless times what we believe as well... so what's the point ?

So based on this quote I guess the answer is no, you don't know what we believe, nor why we believe it.

You're welcome to elaborate further... and as mentioned, you have already explained to me what your view of election is. So with respect to election, I know what you believe... but WHY you believe that... there's always room for more commentary - so say on.

 

[Robert Pate]

Not a Calvinist here, but I'm curious as to what you would do with these:

Acts 4:28 (Show me Acts 4)
to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Romans 8:29 (Show me Romans 8)
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 (Show me Romans 8)
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 (Show me Ephesians 1)
he predestined us[1] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[1]Or before him in love, having predestined us

Ephesians 1:11 (Show me Ephesians 1)
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



And faith is something God gives us completely apart from anything we could do, decide or deserve. It is a free gift.

None of the above scripture says that any one has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. It is an assumption that some one has been predestinated to heaven and to hell, but not a actual bible fact.

Since Jesus Christ is the new Adam and federal head of the human race we must believe that our humanity was in him before the foundation of the world, otherwise the incarnation is meaning less.

God by the Holy Spirit calls all to come to Christ.

 

[Hammster]

None of the above scripture says that any one has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. It is an assumption that some one has been predestinated to heaven and to hell, but not a actual bible fact.

Since Jesus Christ is the new Adam and federal head of the human race we must believe that our humanity was in him before the foundation of the world, otherwise the incarnation is meaning less.

God by the Holy Spirit calls all to come to Christ.

We know what you think they don't mean. But what do you think they do mean?

 

[Robert Pate]

The biggest problem that I see with Calvinism is that it makes God unjust.

God did choose, prophets, patriarchs, apostles, the nation of Israel, for the sole purpose of making known to the world the gospel. The whole bible is about how God has reconciled the world unto himself by the work and person of Jesus Christ.

Now if God has saved the whole world why would he predestinate only some to salvation? Why not provide salvation for all? And then whosoever can call on the name of the Lord and be saved. This makes God just. But if God determines to send all to hell except for a few chosen ones that makes God unjust,

 

[Hammster]

The biggest problem that I see with Calvinism is that it makes God unjust.

God did choose, prophets, patriarchs, apostles, the nation of Israel, for the sole purpose of making known to the world the gospel. The whole bible is about how God has reconciled the world unto himself by the work and person of Jesus Christ.

Now if God has saved the whole world why would he predestinate only some to salvation? Why not provide salvation for all? And then whosoever can call on the name of the Lord and be saved. This makes God just. But if God determines to send all to hell except for a few chosen ones that makes God unjust,

Actually, what makes God just is punishing those who sin against Him. This is justice. What makes Him merciful is sending His Son to die for the sins of those He chose to save.

 

[Robert Pate]

We know what you think they don't mean. But what do you think they do mean?

All who come to Christ are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

All are called, but not all come to Christ. Those that do come to Christ are justified and will be glorified.

It is God's purpose to provide salvation for fallen humanity, this is what the gospel is about.

There is no scripture about God predestinating anyone to heaven or to hell. That is an assumption.

 

[Hammster]

All who come to Christ are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

Let's start with this one. You say that predestination is only applicable to being conformed to the image of Christ. Okay, let's see what the passage says.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

Here in this passage, the call goes out to only those He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. And those who were predestined to be conformed were those He foreknew. So, the logical next question is, what does Paul mean by 'those whom he foreknew'?