The good book?

Elioenai26 · May 31, 2013

Dave Ellis said:
So on one hand you fully agree any God that orders a mass murder is evil, then you defend a God who you admit ordered a mass murder.

Dave Ellis, I have maintained the exact opposite of what you have stated. I HAVE STATED PLAINLY THAT GOD HAS NEVER ORDERED MASS MURDER.

What is it that you do not understand about that?

pjnlsn · May 31, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Dave Ellis, I have maintained the exact opposite of what you have stated. I HAVE STATED PLAINLY THAT GOD HAS NEVER ORDERED MASS MURDER.

What is it that you do not understand about that?

You seem a bit delusional. Or a bit of a sophist, though it amounts to the same thing.

You know what people were referring to.

New International Version - 19:23

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrahfrom the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the citiesand also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lots wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

Now, you may have been taught never to question things which are presented as being of the entity you hope exists, or taught that it can do no wrong, and so what would be wrong for someone else to do, it is not wrong for the entity to do. But anyone can modify their belief system to some purpose; It's purely intellectual, there are no real constraints.

All that is being said, and what you could be fully aware of, is that it is written in the Bible of an action presented as being done by your god which is wrong.

Elioenai26 · May 31, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
Are you suggesting there is such thing a rightfully taking a life? thats disgusting!

Tell that to those who have been given authority to take life for the greater good of society. Tell that to the police officers, soldiers, doctors and numerous others who take lives everyday and do so rightfully. I assure you, you would not think it disgusting if an armed man had your loved one at gunpoint threatning to kill them and a police officer killed the armed man to protect those vulnerable to his evil intentions.

It seems to me you are willfully ignorant of the fact that there are literally millions of scenarios in which it is right to kill a person. In these circumstances it is not called murder, it is called the justified taking of life.

Sectio Aurea said:
according to the bible your god has indeed commanded murder of the worst kind.

You mean commanded the killing of people who were a threat to society.

Sectio Aurea said:
Christianity is a relatively modern religion (Only 2000 years old) Humans were worshipping gods for many thousands of years before the advent of christianity and its books. Christianity was lucky enough to have been invented when man had the technology to write. Just because the bible has been known to be called the "good" book does not neccessarily render it a good book.

No historian of religion or philosopher of religion would call Christianity a "modern" religion my friend. The point is moot anyway. The majority of the Bible (The Old Testament) existed long before Christianity was a recognized religion. You seem to be under the impression that the Bible has only been around for 2000 years. This is clearly incorrect and you are demonstrating your ignorance to everyone here regarding the topics you wish to speak on.

Sectio Aurea said:
This is once again only something that you believe, there is no evidence to support your belief.

Evidence in any form, will not convince those unwilling to see the truth.

Sectio Aurea said:
I can say the same about the flying spaghetti monster, does that make my statement true by definition?

Sure you could. But you would no longer be talking about a flying spaghetti monster. You would be talking about God.

Sectio Aurea said:
It is still just a belief, a belief that you personally believe.

Umm...no..

Philosophers hold that the western conceptualization of God is best encapsulated in the Anselmian definition i.e. The Greatest Conceivable Being. This is first year philosophy of religion my friend. Very basic stuff you find in textbooks throughout academia.

Sectio Aurea said:
If your definition of sin is correct, then everybody including the christian god is sinful also.

How so?

Elioenai26 · May 31, 2013

pjnlsn said:
You seem a bit delusional. Or a bit of a sophist, though it amounts to the same thing.

You know what people were referring to.

New International Version - 19:23

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrahfrom the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the citiesand also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lots wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

Now, you may have been taught never to question things which are presented as being of the entity you hope exists, or taught that it can do no wrong, and so what would be wrong for someone else to do, it is not wrong for the entity to do. But anyone can modify their belief system to some purpose; It's purely intellectual, there are no real constraints.

All that is being said, and what you could be fully aware of, is that it is written in the Bible of an action presented as being done by your god which is wrong.

You are quote mining like many of your anti Christian fellows here.

Provide us with the context and then we can discuss the verses. Copy and paste the entire book in which that passage is located and let us discuss it, verse by verse.

Elioenai26 · May 31, 2013

pjnlsn said:
What people are saying is that in essence an act of evil -and something which would be in a human an example of an unbalanced mind- is described in the bible of your god.

What is evil about eradicating evil from the world?

Is that not a good thing?

You seem to be under the impression that these people whom God commanded to be destroyed were peace loving, do no wrong, productive, loving, caring members of society. These people whom God destroyed were the exact opposite my friend. God would be evil if HE HAD NOT DESTROYED THEM.

pjnlsn · May 31, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
You are quote mining like many of your anti Christian fellows here.

Provide us with the context and then we can discuss the verses. Copy and paste the entire book in which that passage is located and let us discuss it, verse by verse.

No, what you think was said by others in the thread is not what was said. Again:

New International Version - 19:23

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

Now, you may have been taught never to question things which are presented as being of the entity you hope exists, or taught that it can do no wrong, and so what would be wrong for someone else to do, it is not wrong for the entity to do. But anyone can modify their belief system to some purpose; It's purely intellectual, there are no real constraints.

All that is being said, and what you could be fully aware of, is that it is written in the Bible of an action presented as being done by your god which is wrong. Not that it was done for no reason or for a bad reason, but simply that it is wrong.

In a human, such an act as is described would be an example of an unbalanced mind and the motivations for the act, deep down, would not be benevolent. This is relevant, again, because (strictly speaking, although in any other context I wouldn't have to say that) the books of the bible were written by people.

AECellini · May 31, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
What is evil about eradicating evil from the world?

nothing wrong with eradicating evil, the methods themselves are reprehensible (you've agreed that they are, and that any gods that commit such acts are evil). i think there are much better options for a supposedly omnipotent god than genocide, especially options which don't violate his own supposedly objective moral code.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 1, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Tell that to those who have been given authority to take life for the greater good of society. Tell that to the police officers, soldiers, doctors and numerous others who take lives everyday and do so rightfully. I assure you, you would not think it disgusting if an armed man had your loved one at gunpoint threatning to kill them and a police officer killed the armed man to protect those vulnerable to his evil intentions.

It seems to me you are willfully ignorant of the fact that there are literally millions of scenarios in which it is right to kill a person. In these circumstances it is not called murder, it is called the justified taking of life.

The mindset that there are "literally millions of scenarios in which it is right to kill a person" is the same evil mindset taught in the bible. It is the same evil mindset that is behind man's most violent religious conflicts. It seems to me you are wilfully ignorant of this fact.

Elioenai26 said:
You mean commanded the killing of people who were a threat to society.

Explain how this damsel is a threat to society?

◄ Deuteronomy 22:23 ►

23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24Then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them with stones that they die;

Elioenai26 said:
No historian of religion or philosopher of religion would call Christianity a "modern" religion my friend. The point is moot anyway. The majority of the Bible (The Old Testament) existed long before Christianity was a recognized religion. You seem to be under the impression that the Bible has only been around for 2000 years. This is clearly incorrect and you are demonstrating your ignorance to everyone here regarding the topics you wish to speak on.

Thanks for your kind words, now pull out your calculator and do the math, now let us just use us endlings as an example (200,000 years of history) I was suggesting the last say...1% of human history, If you want to argue for 1.2% that's fine I will concede. My point is it is still a "modern" religion relatively speaking with regards to human history. My point was the many Hundreds of the Christian denominations popular today were only invented in the most recent 0.025% of human history. That is so minuscule it could hardly be measured on the scale of human history.

Elioenai26 said:
Evidence in any form, will not convince those unwilling to see the truth.

I get the impression your statement above is psychological projection?

Elioenai26 said:
Sure you could. But you would no longer be talking about a flying spaghetti monster. You would be talking about God.

How could you be talking about god? The word "god" is meaningless, at least the Flying spaghetti monster has meaning to the words. It doesn't matter what people believe the meaning of the word god might mean, but in this age of discovery it is no longer necessary to conveniently attribute "god" to currently unexplained phenomena as a plausible explanation.

Elioenai26 said:
Umm...no..

Philosophers hold that the western conceptualization of God is best encapsulated in the Anselmian definition i.e. The Greatest Conceivable Being. This is first year philosophy of religion my friend. Very basic stuff you find in textbooks throughout academia.

I do not claim to have any philosophy skill's and I do not dispute the popular opinion what I am saying is this...

"Western conceptualization of God" is simply only a belief held, you can not rightfully assert the conceptualization as something that is actually true.

Elioenai26 said:
How so?

Because "wrong doing" is subjective.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 1, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Tell that to those who have been given authority to take life for the greater good of society. Tell that to the police officers, soldiers, doctors and numerous others who take lives everyday and do so rightfully.

There are times when killing people can be of benefit to society, but does that really make it rightful?
I know an ex-special forces soldier (very close to me) who killed innocent civilian people during the Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation simply because he was sighted, his own error. Despite the given "authority" to kill in such an event as well as the motive "for god, queen and country" he still doesn't believe it was rightful. Just one of many collateral damages in one of many pointless religious conflicts but it was standard procedure nonetheless.

Don't ever forget that killing for the good of society was also the justification that Adolf Hitler (a promoter of Christianity) and many of his followers used to overcome their own cognitive dissonance while they operated the gas chambers on the jews like a well oiled efficient industrial production line.

Anyway, If a cop fatally shot someone who was absolutely going to kill my children I would be pleased, but I wouldn't consider it rightfully taking of life, I would have preferred a non lethal method instead.

Dave Ellis · Jun 2, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Dave Ellis, I have maintained the exact opposite of what you have stated. I HAVE STATED PLAINLY THAT GOD HAS NEVER ORDERED MASS MURDER.

What is it that you do not understand about that?

Ordering every inhabitant of a city to be killed is mass murder by any reasonable definition.

JGL53 · Jun 2, 2013

Plus there is the book of Job.

What kind of decent god would engage in such outrageously insane behavior?

Well, an imaginary god might - one imagined by some middle-east desert redneck who thinks that disease is caused by demons, etc.

LOL.

pjnlsn · Jun 2, 2013

JGL53 said:
Plus there is the book of Job.

What kind of decent god would engage in such outrageously insane behavior?

Well, an imaginary god might - one imagined by some middle-east desert redneck who thinks that disease is caused by demons, etc.

LOL.

Exactly.

For example, one of the authors of the Bible might be someone who dreams of being able to wave their hand and blow up all the people who offend them. With lots of sulfur thrown in for fun.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 3, 2013

pjnlsn said:
Genocide sometimes refers to mass murder in general.

What people are saying is that in essence an act of evil -and something which would be in a human an example of an unbalanced mind- is described in the bible of your god. This is relevant because, strictly speaking (although in any other context I wouldn't have to say that), the books of the Bible were written by men. Or possibly a woman, but the point is, by humans.

Possibly a woman? Thats amusing although possible I guess, possible as in highly unlikely, especially given the status woman had in the middle east in the bronze age or even today, but I must admit, if a woman was one of the authors of the bible, I would expect her to be a misogynistic woman, if such exists.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 3, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
I think you know that murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. Wrongful is synonymous with sinful. God has never commanded anyone to be murdered.

Elioenai26, either you haven't read the bible properly or you simply have a serious case of compartmentalizing the morals of your god.

Your god has indeed commanded multiple murders, and some of these murders could be accurately described as most evil and heinous.

For example, for the crime of blasphemy which I'm sure we can both agree is the context of the scripture below. (just to avoid the quote mining accusations)

Leviticus 24:13-16NIV

13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

Eudaimonist · Jun 3, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
I think you know that murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. Wrongful is synonymous with sinful. God has never commanded anyone to be murdered.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
-- Steven Weinberg

eudaimonia,

Mark

AlexBP · Jun 3, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
In Australia the Christian groups have been granted excemptions over and above everybody else, for example, they can legally deny homo-sexuals employment, they can also be legally excempted from paying tax's, they can also legally place chaplains into public schools ...

Really? Can you actually provide links to the text of the legislation which specifically says that Christians can do things in Australia that no one else can do? If not, why should I believe what you're saying?

Davian · Jun 3, 2013

AlexBP said:
Really? Can you actually provide links to the text of the legislation which specifically says that Christians can do things in Australia that no one else can do? If not, why should I believe what you're saying?

Just for fun I googled "australian christians in public schools":

"A few years ago, the government realised that they could hand over school counselling roles to a willing Christian church without having to pay for the privilege. Now almost half of Australian public schools have a Christian volunteer as a full time member of the school community with parents having no direct control of how much their children are exposed to."

"Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus have a sword fight."

On the humorous side, check out the adjacent article re the "Permission Slip".

Sectio Aurea · Jun 3, 2013

Originally Posted by Sectio Aurea
In Australia the Christian groups have been granted excemptions over and above everybody else, for example, they can legally deny homo-sexuals employment, they can also be legally excempted from paying tax's, they can also legally place chaplains into public schools ...

AlexBP said:
Really? Can you actually provide links to the text of the legislation which specifically says that Christians can do things in Australia that no one else can do? If not, why should I believe what you're saying?

Religions Will Be Allowed To Discriminate Against Gays

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/rich-men-in-the-tax-free-kingdom-of-god/

Access Ministries speech: Making 'disciples'

Mission Field: Education not Expected - YouTube

Faith in schools: The dismantling of Australia's secular public education system – Opinion – ABC Religion & Ethics (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

AlexBP · Jun 4, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
Originally Posted by Sectio Aurea
In Australia the Christian groups have been granted excemptions over and above everybody else,

I challenged you to provide links to the text of the legislation which specifically says that Christians can do things in Australia that no one else can do. You failed to do so.

Davian said:
On the humorous side, check out the adjacent article re the "Permission Slip".

You and I have had our differences, but here at least we can agree: the e-mails written by the atheist are so immature and stupid as to be humorous.

Davian · Jun 4, 2013

AlexBP said:
...
You and I have had our differences, but here at least we can agree: the e-mails written by the atheist are so immature and stupid as to be humorous.

One must bring oneself down to the level of the topic at hand. I do it all the time here.

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