The good book?

Sectio Aurea · May 28, 2013

MathWizard said:
I probably read some of the books in the bible 100+ times by now. You know when you read it you have to think deeply each time.

If I think deeply while reading the bible I realise "what a croc" it all is, I believe one must stop thinking if one wants to believe the scripture.

MathWizard said:
It isn't so plain. I don't really talk to people who don't believe in God though so I don't know much about atheism. If I do usually they are so uninterested they just wave me on. So there is no understanding going on concerning me and that group.

Anywho! I consider it the good book because it shows how disastrous it is to be on the opposing side of God.

A bit like reading about the various penalties and sentences for various crimes against the law?

MathWizard said:
That it shows God is merciful despite knowing how much he hates sin, that he would take lives for sin for the benefit of those who don't sin (ex: Israel taking over the land over those who did many abominations in the land were killed by the sword by Israel). It is sad they had to die.

So the Israelites are without sin?

MathWizard said:
But even if not everything is written in the bible it's still there. Even Pharaoh was given 10+ chances to repent before he was destroyed. Yes his heart was hardened to God. But that doesn't excuse his evil behavior.

So how can you excuse god from his evil behaviour?

MathWizard said:
Apart from showing the judgment and its results (death) it shows how living in his grace is the most blessed way to live. That he will give all lands to you. He will take care of all your problems. He will heal you and remove thorns from your life. He genuinely loves you and through faith in Him, he considers you, a sinner that previously did things that showed you hated God (sin).. that he considers you a child of his.

And when I think about it really I am in a relationship where I am told I am loved a lot.

Who told you?

MathWizard said:
But they cheat on me so much, like I think my heart has been broken over a dozen times now. Well I love them... it made me think about how people only love God with their words. Yeah you can say you love God. Then go ahead and sin. And it made me draw the comparison of when my heart was broken each time I was cheated on. Even though he tells me he loves me, i have been growing bitter toward him.

So I can see how sin can do this with us and God. God considers sin to be something that he is willing to separate himself from us over. So I think its reasonable to do what he wants since regardless we will get our hearts desire by just doing it his way. its like being a good spouse.

But committing genocide would be doing it his way, is that not sinful?

MathWizard said:
So I think its good because it made me see how much God loves me, but also shows me how much he hates sin and the lengths he will go. Jesus did say 'These people worship me with their lips, but their heart is far from me' and James said 'Even demons believe in God and tremble' and James was right because Demons obviously believe and are not saved so how much more can a Christian who believes in God to be saved if they continue to *cheat* on him.

Thank you for your response, I look forward to your replies.

Elioenai26 · May 29, 2013

quatona said:
In the post to which Dave Ellis responded you asked:
(emphasis added)
It´s there for everyone to see.

What is there for everyone to see? What is it that you are referring to?

pjnlsn · May 29, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
What is there for everyone to see? What is it that you are referring to?

He refers to the passages where people are murdered and raped and cities destroyed, I suppose.

Elioenai26 · May 29, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
But committing genocide would be doing it his way, is that not sinful?

Nothing God commands can be sinful.

Do you know why God commanded for certain people to be killed?

Are you even taking the context into account?

Are you interpreting said passages in light of the Bible as a whole?

If not, then you are quote mining and therefore, will always come to erroneous, unsupported conclusions just like every other person who fails to read the mere handful of passages in question within their context.

The Bible actually, when read as a whole, is a very beautiful and inspiring book.

Certainly, one can paint a picture of an evil god if they pick and choose certain passages out of the bible. This is easy. I can take a work of literature from any genre and pick and choose words from it to paint a picture of the author to be whatever I desire to by picking and choosing selections of the work and saying these selections are a holistic and complete representation of the author's nature.

The truth of the matter is this:

If God exists, then by definition, sin is utterly repulsive to Him and He would not be God if He did not mete out punishment and judgment on said sin.

Your problem is that you do not believe in sin and therefore any talk of "judgment" "righteousness" and "punishment" are merely exercises in futility to you.

Elioenai26 · May 29, 2013

pjnlsn said:
He refers to the passages where people are murdered and raped and cities destroyed, I suppose.

These passages are?

Do you know that there is a difference between killing someone and murdering someone?

People kill people quite frequently in your society my friend and they are seen as being not evil, but rather, good and responsible guardians of the helpless and vulnerable in society. Did you not know this?

Police officers, soldiers, and doctors take lives everyday....are they evil? Of course not....

Context my friend....context has to be considered in judging whether the taking of a life is justifiable killing or murder....

Nor does God command anyone to be raped....ever....so this is moot....

As far as cities go, yes God commanded certain places to be destroyed....He destroys some Himself. But why?

Ever think of answering or searching for the reason God gives as to why He does these things?

pjnlsn · May 29, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Nothing God commands can be sinful.

Do you know why God commanded for certain people to be killed?

Are you even taking the context into account?

Are you interpreting said passages in light of the Bible as a whole?

If not, then you are quote mining and therefore, will always come to erroneous, unsupported conclusions just like every other person who fails to read the mere handful of passages in question within their context.

The Bible actually, when read as a whole, is a very beautiful and inspiring book.

Certainly, one can paint a picture of an evil god if they pick and choose certain passages out of the bible. This is easy. I can take a work of literature from any genre and pick and choose words from it to paint a picture of the author to be whatever I desire to by picking and choosing selections of the work and saying these selections are a holistic and complete representation of the author's nature.

The truth of the matter is this:

If God exists, then by definition, sin is utterly repulsive to Him and He would not be God if He did not mete out punishment and judgment on said sin.

Your problem is that you do not believe in sin and therefore any talk of "judgment" "righteousness" and "punishment" are merely exercises in futility to you.

While many religious people have been taught to never question what is presented as being of the entity they hope exists, what others are saying is that it is written in your holy book that the entity you worship committed the terrible crime of genocide.

pjnlsn · May 29, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
These passages are?

Do you know that there is a difference between killing someone and murdering someone?

People kill people quite frequently in your society my friend and they are seen as being not evil, but rather, good and responsible guardians of the helpless and vulnerable in society. Did you not know this?

There's the one about a city apparently called "Sodom," offhand.

Elioenai26 · May 29, 2013

pjnlsn said:
While many religious people have been taught to never question what is presented as being of the entity they hope exists, what others are saying is that it is written in your holy book that the entity you worship committed the terrible crime of genocide.

God has committed no crime ever...

You have failed to take into account God's nature, as well as His motives in ordering the destruction of certain people and their dwelling places.

Quote mining is not a good way to support your view my friend.

Elioenai26 · May 29, 2013

pjnlsn said:
There's the one about a city apparently called "Sodom," offhand.

Of course.

Why was it destroyed?

I doubt it matters to you, but I would like you to research why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He actually gives the reason if you would care to know...

pjnlsn · May 29, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Of course.

Why was it destroyed?

I doubt it matters to you, but I would like you to research why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He actually gives the reason if you would care to know...

No, people aren't noting that it was written that someone did this thing and had a reason, but rather, and again despite that religious people are taught not to question it, but simply that it was done. Genocide being not a totally inaccurate word for what is described.

Sectio Aurea · May 29, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Of course.

Why was it destroyed?

I doubt it matters to you, but I would like you to research why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He actually gives the reason if you would care to know...

I suspect if you query any mass murderer for their motive they will give a reason, but the reality is there is no reason that can give to justify mass murder. Mass murdering is wrong! Gods who practice such behaviour can be described as evil.

Sectio Aurea · May 30, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Nothing God commands can be sinful. .

So does that mean murder is not sinful?

Elioenai26 said:
Do you know why God commanded for certain people to be killed?.

Because he is evil.

Elioenai26 said:
Are you even taking the context into account?.

I'm trying my best.

Elioenai26 said:
Are you interpreting said passages in light of the Bible as a whole?

The best I can, I am interpreting said passages in light of the sub-book within the bible.

Elioenai26 said:
If not, then you are quote mining and therefore, will always come to erroneous, unsupported conclusions just like every other person who fails to read the mere handful of passages in question within their context.

I do not condone quote mining. This thread is about the bible as a whole, mostly good? mostly bad? Comments please?

Elioenai26 said:
The Bible actually, when read as a whole, is a very beautiful and inspiring book.

The beauty is in the eye of the beholder, necrophiliacs believe decomposing genitals are beautiful, the facts are, the bible does not posses anything more significant, inspiring or beautiful than many other books.

Elioenai26 said:
Certainly, one can paint a picture of an evil god if they pick and choose certain passages out of the bible. This is easy. I can take a work of literature from any genre and pick and choose words from it to paint a picture of the author to be whatever I desire to by picking and choosing selections of the work and saying these selections are a holistic and complete representation of the author's nature.

Are you suggesting your god is the author of the bible?

Elioenai26 said:
The truth of the matter is this:

If God exists, then by definition, sin is utterly repulsive to Him and He would not be God if He did not mete out punishment and judgment on said sin.

That is NOT the truth, it is simply your belief.

Elioenai26 said:
Your problem is that you do not believe in sin and therefore any talk of "judgment" "righteousness" and "punishment" are merely exercises in futility to you.

The concept of sin is only a problem to a theist because it is a theist idea. It was devised by theists to coerce people into believing in gods.

Elioenai26 · May 30, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
I suspect if you query any mass murderer for their motive they will give a reason, but the reality is there is no reason that can give to justify mass murder. Mass murdering is wrong! Gods who practice such behaviour can be described as evil.

I wholeheartedly agree.

No reason can be given to justify mass murder. This is correct. I also agree that gods who practice such behavior could rightfully be described as evil.

Elioenai26 · May 30, 2013

pjnlsn said:
No, people aren't noting that it was written that someone did this thing and had a reason, but rather, and again despite that religious people are taught not to question it, but simply that it was done. Genocide being not a totally inaccurate word for what is described.

God did not order that the Amalekites be destroyed because they were Amalekites.

God did not say to Israel: "kill the Amalekites because they are a different race than you are O Israel...."

God did not say: "Kill the Amalekites because they are not Israelites O Israel."

God did not say: "Kill the Amalekites because they look different than you do and speak a different language than you do and are inferior to you O Israel."

God gives His reasons, and they cannot even remotely be likened unto the reasons why men commit genocide against their fellow human beings.

Elioenai26 · May 30, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
So does that mean murder is not sinful?

I think you know that murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. Wrongful is synonymous with sinful. God has never commanded anyone to be murdered.

Sectio Aurea said:
Because he is evil.

Wrong. Try again. This time actually read the relevant passages.

Sectio Aurea said:
I'm trying my best.

If your best is quote mining, then you need to change your approach.

Sectio Aurea said:
The best I can, I am interpreting said passages in light of the sub-book within the bible.

If what you say is true...then you would know that God had good reasons for ordering the destruction of the Amalekites as well as Sodom and Gomorrah and that His actions are about as far from wrong as one can get.

Sectio Aurea said:
The beauty is in the eye of the beholder, necrophiliacs believe decomposing genitals are beautiful, the facts are, the bible does not posses anything more significant, inspiring or beautiful than many other books.

Necrophiliacs are also very disturbed individuals even if beauty is largely (not totally) subjective.

Your last statement is a direct contradiction of what is known to be true regarding the Bible and it's legacy and history as the most loved, most read, most published, most translated, most cherished book in all of human history.

Sectio Aurea said:
Are you suggesting your god is the author of the bible?

I am not suggesting. I am plainly stating that God is the author of the Bible in that the words and thoughts conveyed within are from His mind and heart expressed via the minds and hearts of those who loved Him and walked in intimate fellowship with Him.

Sectio Aurea said:
That is NOT the truth, it is simply your belief.

It is true by definition. God by definition, is the Greatest Conceivable Being and therefore the Summum Bonum i.e. the Highest Good.

This is not my belief. It is simply a description of the classical conceptualization of God used by philosophers.

Sectio Aurea said:
The concept of sin is only a problem to a theist because it is a theist idea. It was devised by theists to coerce people into believing in gods.

It is not a problem for any theist. I do not know one theist who would say sin was a problem for them. The concept of sin is understood and accepted by theist and atheist alike. Sin is wrongdoing, missing the mark, not doing what is right, failing to do good, etc. etc.

Dave Ellis · May 30, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
God did not order that the Amalekites be destroyed because they were Amalekites.

God did not say to Israel: "kill the Amalekites because they are a different race than you are O Israel...."

God did not say: "Kill the Amalekites because they are not Israelites O Israel."

God did not say: "Kill the Amalekites because they look different than you do and speak a different language than you do and are inferior to you O Israel."

God gives His reasons, and they cannot even remotely be likened unto the reasons why men commit genocide against their fellow human beings.

So on one hand you fully agree any God that orders a mass murder is evil, then you defend a God who you admit ordered a mass murder.

Sectio Aurea · May 31, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
I think you know that murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. Wrongful is synonymous with sinful. God has never commanded anyone to be murdered. .

Are you suggesting there is such thing a rightfully taking a life? thats disgusting! according to the bible your god has indeed commanded murder of the worst kind.

Elioenai26 said:
Your last statement is a direct contradiction of what is known to be true regarding the Bible and it's legacy and history as the most loved, most read, most published, most translated, most cherished book in all of human history..

Christianity is a relatively modern religion (Only 2000 years old) Humans were worshipping gods for many thousands of years before the advent of christianity and its books. Christianity was lucky enough to have been invented when man had the technology to write. Just because the bible has been known to be called the "good" book does not neccessarily render it a good book.

Elioenai26 said:
I am not suggesting. I am plainly stating that God is the author of the Bible in that the words and thoughts conveyed within are from His mind and heart expressed via the minds and hearts of those who loved Him and walked in intimate fellowship with Him..

This is once again only something that you believe, there is no evidence to support your belief.

Elioenai26 said:
It is true by definition. God by definition, is the Greatest Conceivable Being and therefore the Summum Bonum i.e. the Highest Good..

I can say the same about the flying spaghetti monster, does that make my statement true by definition?

Elioenai26 said:
This is not my belief. It is simply a description of the classical conceptualization of God used by philosophers..

It is still just a belief, a belief that you personally believe.

Elioenai26 said:
It is not a problem for any theist. I do not know one theist who would say sin was a problem for them. The concept of sin is understood and accepted by theist and atheist alike. Sin is wrongdoing, missing the mark, not doing what is right, failing to do good, etc. etc.

If your definition of sin is correct, then everybody including the christian god is sinful also.

pjnlsn · May 31, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
God did not order that the Amalekites be destroyed because they were Amalekites.

God did not say to Israel: "kill the Amalekites because they are a different race than you are O Israel...."

God did not say: "Kill the Amalekites because they are not Israelites O Israel."

God did not say: "Kill the Amalekites because they look different than you do and speak a different language than you do and are inferior to you O Israel."

God gives His reasons, and they cannot even remotely be likened unto the reasons why men commit genocide against their fellow human beings.

Genocide sometimes refers to mass murder in general.

What people are saying is that in essence an act of evil -and something which would be in a human an example of an unbalanced mind- is described in the bible of your god. This is relevant because, strictly speaking (although in any other context I wouldn't have to say that), the books of the Bible were written by men. Or possibly a woman, but the point is, by humans.

pjnlsn · May 31, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
It is true by definition. God by definition, is the Greatest Conceivable Being and therefore the Summum Bonum i.e. the Highest Good.

This is not my belief. It is simply a description of the classical conceptualization of God used by philosophers.

Certain people place a lot of importance on things like this, but it doesn't amount to anything. it's just another bit of theology attempting to justify the existence of something which has never had a good reason to.

So yes, i'm sure it is your belief, and the belief of those others, but they and you believe in vain, as it were.

And that is what Sectio meant when he said that the above is not truth but just your belief.

pjnlsn · May 31, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
I wholeheartedly agree.

No reason can be given to justify mass murder. This is correct. I also agree that gods who practice such behavior could rightfully be described as evil.

Based on this, your god is evil. I mean, the two things are so equivalent almost based entirely on your own statements that you've probably picked up a nasty habit of compartmentalizing your religion.

The good book?

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