The Golden Calf

[Yardstick]

It seems throughout the old testament the Jews choose to worship idols instead of God. Why is this image often times a cow? I'm assuming a near by culture worshiped calves?

 

[simonthezealot]

It seems throughout the old testament the Jews choose to worship idols instead of God. Why is this image often times a cow? I'm assuming a near by culture worshiped calves?

Yes nearby culture...What you should recognise was that the golden calf was a physical representation of "eloyhim" God almighty, sadly the translaters added a plural in most translations and it seems to confuse people but its clear from the context in both Aarons case and where they had them set up in Bethel and Dan that they were to represent the "God who brought them out of Egypt"

 

[Yarddog]

It seems throughout the old testament the Jews choose to worship idols instead of God. Why is this image often times a cow? I'm assuming a near by culture worshiped calves?

Hey Yardstick,

I'm not sure how many of the idols, which the Jews fell into worshipping were cows or bulls, but the golden calf may have been used because of an Egyptian idol called Apis, the bull.

Yarddog

 

[simonthezealot]

Hey Yardstick,

I'm not sure how many of the idols, which the Jews fell into worshipping were cows or bulls, but the golden calf may have been used because of an Egyptian idol called Apis, the bull.

Yarddog

Yes Apis, the name had slipped my mind..Good recall YD

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Also, the calf was a common representation of Canaanite gods in addition to the Egyptian god Apis already mentioned.

 

[Yardstick]

ah! Thanks guys

 

[Sphinx777]

Here is another thread that discusses the subject...

Link

 

[Rhamiel]

Egypt, Cannanite, the Babylonians woshiped the "Bull of Heaven" also other times when the Jews feel into idol whorship it is offten a bull or a calf

 

[simonthezealot]

Egypt, Cannanite, the Babylonians woshiped the "Bull of Heaven" also other times when the Jews feel into idol whorship it is offten a bull or a calf

And intended as symbols of Yahweh.
It's a good reason we must be very careful and tread lightly on icons and statue usage, or just keep away from those things all together along with any other representations of God almighty that are made by the hands of humans.

 

[Yarddog]

And intended as symbols of Yahweh.
It's a good reason we must be very careful and tread lightly on icons and statue usage, or just keep away from those things all together along with any other representations of God almighty that are made by the hands of humans.

Yeah, I agree. It's a good thing that there are no major christians faiths that do this.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

And intended as symbols of Yahweh.
It's a good reason we must be very careful and tread lightly on icons and statue usage, or just keep away from those things all together along with any other representations of God almighty that are made by the hands of humans.

Wait, are you saying that when the Israelites worshiped idols they thought that they were worshiping YHWH? Because it explicitly identifies the idols as other Ancient Near Eastern 'gods' (usually Baal or Ashurah).

I would be careful when identifying icons and statues with idols because these holy symbols are in the image of people that have bodies. We are forbidden to make images to YHWH, but no where does it say that we cannot make an image of the real man Jesus Christ. If they had had polaroids beck then, would it have been a sin to take a picture of Jesus?

 

[simonthezealot]

Wait, are you saying that when the Israelites worshiped idols they thought that they were worshiping YHWH? Because it explicitly identifies the idols as other Ancient Near Eastern 'gods' (usually Baal or Ashurah).

I would be careful when identifying icons and statues with idols because these holy symbols are in the image of people that have bodies. We are forbidden to make images to YHWH, but no where does it say that we cannot make an image of the real man Jesus Christ. If they had had polaroids beck then, would it have been a sin to take a picture of Jesus?

Yes Exo 32 the golden calf was to symbolise God almighty "Eloyhim" it is evidenced in the phrases..."the god who brought you out of egypt" and "make a feast day unto the LORD"

 

[simonthezealot]

Wait, are you saying that when the Israelites worshiped idols they thought that they were worshiping YHWH? Because it explicitly identifies the idols as other Ancient Near Eastern 'gods' (usually Baal or Ashurah).

I would be careful when identifying icons and statues with idols because these holy symbols are in the image of people that have bodies. We are forbidden to make images to YHWH, but no where does it say that we cannot make an image of the real man Jesus Christ. If they had had polaroids beck then, would it have been a sin to take a picture of Jesus?

I'm confused you claim to be a calvinist yet you believe theistic evolution and you stand in defense of iconography?????????

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

I'm confused you claim to be a calvinist yet you believe theistic evolution and you stand in defense of iconography?????????

Well, first of all, Calvinism does not deny theistic evolution.

You are correct about the iconography, Calvin was against iconography because he incorrectly identified them as idols, not realizing that with very few exceptions, icons are do not depict the invisible God but instead depict people that actually were embodied such as Jesus Christ and the saints. He also confused reverence for worship.

Calvin was not infallible, as a Calvinist I am not required to consent to his entire Institutes. However, I should note that I am also rapidly moving away from Calvinism in favor of High Church (probably Catholicism).

 

[simonthezealot]

Well, first of all, Calvinism does not deny theistic evolution.

You are correct about the iconography, Calvin was against iconography because he incorrectly identified them as idols, not realizing that with very few exceptions, icons are do not depict the invisible God but instead depict people that actually were embodied such as Jesus Christ and the saints. He also confused reverence for worship.

Calvin was not infallible, as a Calvinist I am not required to consent to his entire Institutes. However, I should note that I am also rapidly moving away from Calvinism in favor of High Church (probably Catholicism).

exchanging truth for man made doctrines?
Would you mind sharing your view of how well you understand the catholics view justification and sanctification vs. the reformed view?

 

[Sphinx777]

exchanging truth for man made doctrines?
Would you mind sharing your view of how well you understand the catholics view justification and sanctification vs. the reformed view?

Justification: Why the Process?

 

[Yarddog]

exchanging truth for man made doctrines?

You're gonna make me laugh

Would you mind sharing your view of how well you understand the catholics view justification and sanctification vs. the reformed view?

Haven't you already been shown that you don't understand it either?

YD

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

exchanging truth for man made doctrines?

Showing your bias by chance?

Would you mind sharing your view of how well you understand the catholics view justification and sanctification vs. the reformed view?

Sphinx777 linked to a thread that I started. It investigates the Catholic view. The reformed view is similar to most other Protestants only they believe that God chooses you, you don't choose Him.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Yes Exo 32 the golden calf was to symbolise God almighty "Eloyhim" it is evidenced in the phrases..."the god who brought you out of egypt" and "make a feast day unto the LORD"

Sorry, I missed this comment earlier.

A couple things: First, upon rereading the text, I realized that your interpretation is a perfectly reasonable one. Elohim (the plural of el or gods) is often used to refer to the Hebrew God YHWH (English usually = the LORD). And, as you point out, Aaron declares a feast for YHWH as well.

However, taking my que from a Jewish scholar named Richard Elliott Friedman, I would like to propose a different interpretation.

Elohim can mean God (c.f. Genesis 1 as well as many other places) but it can also mean gods (as in the pagan gods). Notice that in this passage the verbs that refer to elohim are plural in form. For instance, in verse one, the people say "make gods for us who will go (hebrew = yelicu) in front of us." When elohim refers to God, the Hebrew shows that it should be translated as singular by making the verb singular (even though grammatically because the word is plural the verb should be plural as well). Therefore, we know that in this passage elohim refers to 'the gods'. ("make gods" (v. 1) "these are your gods, Israel who brought you up from the land of Egypt" (v. 4) etc.).

Notice now that the calf is never actually refered to as YHWH (the LORD). The people ask for gods, Aaron makes the calf and declares it to be their gods (see below). He then builds an altar and says that the next day shall be a feast to YHWH, but he never actually identifies the calf as YHWH. I think that perhaps he has realized that he has made a mistake. They ask for gods and he gives them gods and declares that those gods were the ones that brought them out of Egypt and then realizes that he shouldn't have done that so he declares a feast day for the God that actually did bring them from Egypt.

You may be wondering, how could the one calf be several gods. Aaron builds the calf and says "these are your gods" (v. 4). How is that possible? Well, in the Ancient Near East, people didn't generally worship the actual idol, the idol represented an intangible being. So when God commands us to not build an idol it is not for fear that we will worship the object (or at least not primarily) it is because God knows that he doesn't have a body, so we shouldn't build a representation of His body because it doesn't exist (this is why I think it is alright to build or paint an image of Jesus as long as you don't worship the image itself because Jesus did have a body).

Well, if idols themselves weren't worshiped then what was? Think of the idol almost like a throne. Only in the shape of an animal that was significant to the deity or deities. On top of this throne could sit the god/godess/gods/godesses. So, when Aaron points to the calf and says that it is their gods, that makes perfect sense because it really is the representation of several gods. Gods that don't exist or have power mind you, but gods nonetheless.

Furthermore, the people had not yet gotten the commandment to not build an idol to YHWH so what would justify Moses in being so angry? If they didn't know that they shouldn't build idols to YHWH then what they were doing was extremely pious because all that they knew (Egyptian religion) told them that gods liked it when you build an idol to them. So what they were doing was a positive thing (since they didn't know that YHWH didn't like it).

However, even if you are right and this is an image of YHWH, most of the other instances of idolatry in the Bible are clearly aimed at other Ancient Near Eastern gods such as Baal and Ashurah.

 

[Yarddog]

Sphinx777 linked to a thread that I started. It investigates the Catholic view. The reformed view is similar to most other Protestants only they believe that God chooses you, you don't choose Him.

Hi Before,
The Catholic Church doesn't believe that we choose him. We believe that God's Holy Spirit makes it possible for us to accept him, but we do have to accept.

I would love to PM you so that you don't get the wrong info.

God Bless,
Yarddog