The Gentile Prophecy

[Tawhano]

According to the Bible (in several places) the salvation of the Gentiles was a mystery. Although they had a hint that the Gentiles would be saved through the house of Israel it was unknown how this could take place except that the Gentiles convert to Judaism.

Ephesians 3:4-6 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

However we have this detail account on just how this would eventuate. The “manner of language” used to describe this event was the very words revealed to Paul.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 10:11 - 14)
11 And it came to pass after my father had spoken these words he spake unto my brethren concerning the gospel which should be preached among the Jews, and also concerning the dwindling of the Jews in unbelief. And after they had slain the Messiah, who should come, and after he had been slain he should rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, unto the Gentiles.
12 Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive-tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.
13 Wherefore, he said it must needs be that we should be led with one accord into the land of promise, unto the fulfilling of the word of the Lord, that we should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.
14 And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer.

Which is wrong; the Bible or the Book of Mormon?

 

[Blackmarch]

According to the Bible (in several places) the salvation of the Gentiles was a mystery. Although they had a hint that the Gentiles would be saved through the house of Israel it was unknown how this could take place except that the Gentiles convert to Judaism.

Ephesians 3:4-6 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

However we have this detail account on just how this would eventuate. The “manner of language” used to describe this event was the very words revealed to Paul.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 10:11 - 14)
11 And it came to pass after my father had spoken these words he spake unto my brethren concerning the gospel which should be preached among the Jews, and also concerning the dwindling of the Jews in unbelief. And after they had slain the Messiah, who should come, and after he had been slain he should rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, unto the Gentiles.
12 Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive-tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.
13 Wherefore, he said it must needs be that we should be led with one accord into the land of promise, unto the fulfilling of the word of the Lord, that we should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.
14 And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer.

Which is wrong; the Bible or the Book of Mormon?

Um Could you point out what is being contradicted, (or at least what seems to be contradicting)in these verses?

 

[Blackmarch]

I already did. Since you can not understand the point I was making then perhaps this isn’t a topic you should participate in.

Perhaps.
perhaps this one was foolish in even bothering to find out what and why..
See you on another thread then.

 

[Swart]

Um Could you point out what is being contradicted, (or at least what seems to be contradicting)in these verses?

I'd like to join BM in being so obtuse I can't see the contradiction. Could someone please explain it for us dim-witted slack-jawed Mormons?

 

[Doc T]

Which is wrong; the Bible or the Book of Mormon?

I would vote for Tawhano is wrong. Of course, I'm probably just another one of those dim-witted Mormons.

Doc

~

 

[Tawhano]

Looks like I own Blackmarch an apology. I thought it was quite clear what I was saying. So sorry Blackmarch for being so short with you.

 

[Tawhano]

Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (and others) states that the inclusion of the Gentiles in Christ was a mystery not known until then. He explains in his letter to the Romans the mystery by comparing their inclusion to the grafting of branches into the main vine. If this was a mystery not revealed until Paul received it then how is it that we find the very same comparison in the book of Nephi?

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (and others) states that the inclusion of the Gentiles in Christ was a mystery not known until then. He explains in his letter to the Romans the mystery by comparing their inclusion to the grafting of branches into the main vine. If this was a mystery not revealed until Paul received it then how is it that we find the very same comparison in the book of Nephi?

It seems somehow the Book of Lehi evaded the Bible (hint: because he took it with him) and since Nephi talks about the teachings of his father (Lehi), that may explain why it isn't in the Bible. As far as Old Testament chronology, I'm not really sure who if any of the OT prophets were alive at the time of Lehi in Jerusalem (600 BC). Their writings may reflect the teachings of Lehi. Just because it was taught does not mean it was recorded.

 

[Eldy]

It seems somehow the Book of Lehi evaded the Bible (hint: because he took it with him) and since Nephi talks about the teachings of his father (Lehi), that may explain why it isn't in the Bible. As far as Old Testament chronology, I'm not really sure who if any of the OT prophets were alive at the time of Lehi in Jerusalem (600 BC). Their writings may reflect the teachings of Lehi. Just because it was taught does not mean it was recorded.

WHAT????

 

[fatboys]

Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (and others) states that the inclusion of the Gentiles in Christ was a mystery not known until then. He explains in his letter to the Romans the mystery by comparing their inclusion to the grafting of branches into the main vine. If this was a mystery not revealed until Paul received it then how is it that we find the very same comparison in the book of Nephi?

I am perplexed as to why you believe there is a problem? How did you think the Gentiles were going to receive the gospel? The Jews would not, by law, teach the gospel to the gentiles. Christ said, I am not sent, but unto the lost sheep of Israel. This was the belief of the Jews, and Christ reaffirmed that teaching. The Peter felt this way until Paul said that the gospel was to be preached to both the Jews and Gentiles. Now why would it matter that the gospel being taught to the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon be in conflict. A mystery? Come on, what is the mystery about. Surely the logic of someone having knowledge of the Gospel would be the one who would present it to the Gentiles. I am at a loss.

When Christ came, althought he did not teach the Gentiles, he set up the organization to do it. He came to fufill and override the law of the Jews. So we have Christ coming to the chosen people, and then setting up his orgainzation to take the gospel to Gentiles. Sort of like what Christ did after his death. While his body was in the Tomb, Christ went to the spirits in prison to prepare the preaching of the gospel there, so they could receive the fruits of the Atonement as well.

 

[MormonFriend]

Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (and others) states that the inclusion of the Gentiles in Christ was a mystery not known until then. He explains in his letter to the Romans the mystery by comparing their inclusion to the grafting of branches into the main vine. If this was a mystery not revealed until Paul received it then how is it that we find the very same comparison in the book of Nephi?

Shouldn't it be entered into the equation that the people of the Book of Mormon were also a mystery to Paul?

I also find the concept of 'first being last/ last being first,' mentioned often in the NT, most interesting as explained in this part of the Book of Mormon that you quoted from.

40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 13:40 - 42)

 

[Tawhano]

It seems somehow the Book of Lehi evaded the Bible (hint: because he took it with him) and since Nephi talks about the teachings of his father (Lehi), that may explain why it isn't in the Bible.

Hint: it is in the Bible, in the New Testament. Did you not read Ephesians 3:4-6 that I posted?

As far as Old Testament chronology, I'm not really sure who if any of the OT prophets were alive at the time of Lehi in Jerusalem (600 BC). Their writings may reflect the teachings of Lehi. Just because it was taught does not mean it was recorded.

I have no idea what you are proposing here. Nothing could be recorded about how the Gentiles will be joint heirs in Christ because it was a mystery that wasn’t revealed until Paul received it.

 

[Tawhano]

I am perplexed as to why you believe there is a problem? How did you think the Gentiles were going to receive the gospel?

I understand why you would be perplexed; you apparently didn’t understand the scriptures I posted. Of course I know how the mystery works because Paul explained it in the letters to the Ephesians and Romans. He also explained that it was a mystery that was only just revealed to him. No one else ever received this revelation about the Gentiles until then. So how is it that Lehi and Nephi recorded it long before it was revealed?

Now why would it matter that the gospel being taught to the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon be in conflict. A mystery? Come on, what is the mystery about.

I have no idea what you are talking about here, sorry.

I am at a loss.

I see that.

 

[Tawhano]

Shouldn't it be entered into the equation that the people of the Book of Mormon were also a mystery to Paul?

No, why, how does this explain my question?

I also find the concept of 'first being last/ last being first,' mentioned often in the NT, most interesting as explained in this part of the Book of Mormon that you quoted from.

42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi13:42)[/quote]

Which does not explain how a mystery not revealed was known to those it was not revealed to. The book of 1 Nephi was allegedly written in 600BC long before the mystery was revealed to Paul.

 

[fatboys]

I understand why you would be perplexed; you apparently didn’t understand the scriptures I posted. Of course I know how the mystery works because Paul explained it in the letters to the Ephesians and Romans. He also explained that it was a mystery that was only just revealed to him. No one else ever received this revelation about the Gentiles until then. So how is it that Lehi and Nephi recorded it long before it was revealed?

No I do not think you do. Why would you think that because it was a mystery to the Jews, that it would be a mystery to Nephi? The Lord could not reveal this to a prophet? Make clear what you are trying to say.



I

 

[Tawhano]

No I do not think you do. Why would you think that because it was a mystery to the Jews, that it would be a mystery to Nephi? The Lord could not reveal this to a prophet? Make clear what you are trying to say.

Ephesians 3:3-6 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

I think that because the Bible says that is so. Why do you think otherwise?

 

[fatboys]

Ephesians 3:3-6 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

I think that because the Bible says that is so. Why do you think otherwise?

And who was it a mystery to? The Jews?

 

[Tawhano]

And who was it a mystery to? The Jews?

To the sons of men, to wit; the world. I’m not sure what you are trying to get at; Nephi was a Jew was he not?

 

[fatboys]

To the sons of men, to wit; the world. I’m not sure what you are trying to get at; Nephi was a Jew was he not?

What were Jews originally?

 

[Swart]

To the sons of men, to wit; the world. I’m not sure what you are trying to get at; Nephi was a Jew was he not?

He was an Israelite, not a Jew.