The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

redleghunter said:

Yet in chapter 3 God tells Moses Israel will be delivered however not without compulsion. Compulsion was part of the Divine plan.

Of course Pharaoh acted according to his nature.

The part that we should consider is God withheld His Mercy with regards to Pharaoh.

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or perhaps Pharoah forfeited the grace that could have been his.

it's a principal we ignore God it sears or conscience, we ignore God it sears our conscience more .. and more each time we do not obey God, it becomes easier to not do what God wants gradually our consciences are so seared they harden callouses form and we are given over to what we have chosen in denying Gods way.
it is a principal in scripture that God has set life up that way.
we harden our own hearts by our own choices. As God is the one who has set it up that way essentially it could be said God hardens our hearts. its us who forfeit the grace that could be ours and choose by our actions to have our hearts hardened by God.

I'll bring up peculiar personal experiences to put my slant on the question of Pharaoh's free will.

First of all, I make the peculiar claim that on the night my father died, he appeared in my room. As it turned out his body wasn't found for four more days, so I didn't hear about his death in the normal human fashion till four days later.

Anyway we talked and argued. At the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and then just disappeared. But during the discussion, as one point he exclaimed "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!" I argued back (and I was an atheist at the time) saying "That can't be right!"

He replied, "Oh, it's right, all right. You can see that from here!" Yet later in the same discussion, he said "I was WILLING!" (to do the cruel stupid things that got him condemned, and to keep it up for 20 years).

If that peculiar episode was bona fide, and I think it was, then free will and predestination both operate in some fashion.

Now I'll relate another person's peculiar experience. When I was still Presbyterian, probably 30 years ago now, we had one Fred Nile at our church as a guest speaker over the weekend. Link refers -

Fred Nile - Wikipedia

Based in Sydney, he's not much liked by the homosexual community. However one of the people who came with him was a former homosexual, who gave a personal testimony.

To cut a long story short, he'd become Christian, but had "fallen". In despair he tried to commit suicide twice, and the second time he was dead serious. In his own words, he had it all set up and was ready to go.

But just as he was about to take the final step, he claimed that Christ materialised in the opposite corner of the room, moved towards him, and somehow merged with him.

He said that from that time on, he never even had to struggle with homosexual urges, and had married a woman who accepted his past (his wife and couple of young sons were in the audience with us). It was obvious he wasn't proud of his past, but he'd been miraculously delivered from a serious suicide attempt.

Now, most serious suicides DON'T get a miraculous deliverance, whether they're homosexual or not. As a matter of fact, I'd only been a Christian for about six months when the pastor's eldest son committed suicide (he had manic depression pretty badly).

So why was this particular bloke delivered, almost against his free will, and why did I happen to witness what I think was my father's terror as damnation approached, and hear his admission that he "always was doomed" but "was willing". Most people don't have family members materialise in their bedroom on the night they die.

Like Pharaoh, my father persisted in his cruel behaviour for years. If anything he got worse over the years.

So when God ultimately determines that He's had enough of someone, and as far as He's concerned, they're finished(!), it's not usually after a few isolated incidents of personal misbehaviour - it takes place after a person has persisted in their evil, cruel and wilful behaviour for quite some time.

Pharaoh's cruelty was hardly an overnight thing - he or his predecessors had commanded the Jewish babies should be killed, that the work load should ever increase, while refusing to give them the straw they needed to make viable bricks etc. And it went on for a long time.

It got to the point when God thought - "Enough is enough! Now he's going to pay for it!"

But as for the mystery of free will and predestination, there's a former homosexual in Sydney somewhere (presuming he still lives there and is still alive) who is a witness to God's personal intervention, when so many other people in the same circumstance have simply died, and not been delivered miraculously from their own obsessive behaviour.

I don't know the answer to the dichotomy of predestination and free will, but I think the time can come when if someone persists in their evil behaviour, God writes them off. Adolf Hitler was probably always doomed in God's eyes, but it wasn't till he became involved in murderous Nazi politics, and persisted in it, that he set out on the path of unavoidable perdition. Before that there was possibly a chance he could have been saved.

But that's just my opinion. Was Judas Iscariot always doomed?

John 17:12 NIV

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

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Did Judas really have any choice? Your guess is as good as mine.

There is a subject not often discussed on the agency of Satan in the heart and will of men. I don't often reference Calvin, but he not only talks about the natural bondage of the will in the actions of men, but even circumstances where it is connected to the work of Satan in their hearts. Ever hear Satan put it in the heart of him to do this or that? Sounds like the event with Judas, right? This is something that should be talked more about.

redleghunter said:

Your point is God had foreknowledge of what Pharaoh would act and then decided to harden him?

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I don’t think it is exclusively clear in the scriptures it’s more of an educated guess based on what we know about God in other scriptures. It’s not something I would teach as truth just a possibility.

redleghunter said:

What an interesting dichotomy...or is it a paradox?

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It is an enigma concealed within a paradox concealed within a dichotomy.

Hammster said:

I guess it’s good for not only Israel, but for God’s plan, that He got lucky in that Pharaoh acted the way he did. Otherwise, God’s plan of redemption would have went right out the window.

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I think God had plenty of people to choose from that did not repent.

redleghunter said:

Please share. I’m intrigued.

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Can I assume you've read through in the last day or month all of chapter 1? There are several essential things in it. To me, the particular evil (one of several) that the pharaoh (this one alone) commits himself to, and continues in, of trying to have all of the male newborns murdered wasn't only another evil, or only the same as some other murders, but is a (lesser, but still a) version of that particular abomination of all the abominations that by itself stands out as the most severe evil of them all as in Deu 12:31, and as we learn the ultimate consequences of in Malachi chapter 4, where in verse 6 we learn how God responds to such. So, pharaoh had at that point gone into (or near) one of the extremes of evil, already. After that, it's past tense, yes? So, the hardening later then is in response, and also aligns to what we learn of hardening, such as for instance as touched in wordings such as "lest they turn and repent and be forgiven" (Mark 4, v12 for one example).

FutureAndAHope said:

This is election for God's plan. Not election for salvation.

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God's plan of salvation. They aren't exclusive. Especially when the argument appeals to God choosing to love one person and hate the other before either one of them is born.

His student said:

It’s amazing that I should have to point out such obvious truths as follows. But I guess that’s just the way it is. The time has come when men will not abide strong doctrine but, wanting to have their ears tickled, they will gather to themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires. God knows there are many such shallow ear ticklers posting in this forum.

The scriptures are filled with examples of God and men acting and speaking concurrently. This is but one of the examples.

Sometimes the actions and words of men are good and sometimes they are evil. Always the actions and words of God are good.

E.G. ------ The actions of Joseph’s brothers were evil and they meant it as such. But God meant what He did (or allowed if you must) for good. The scriptures make it clear that, since God is the prime mover of all things, He was ultimately the one doing it (all for good alone since He is not the author of evil).

Caiaphas made an evil statement about one man dying for the good of the nation. He meant his comment for evil. At the same time God made the same statement as a prophecy. Therefore it was ultimately God doing it since even Caiaphas lived and moved and had his being in God.

The donkey brayed and meant it in the way a donkey only can. At the same time God spoke His words and later recorded them in the scriptures for us.

Evil men meant to crucify Jesus as an altogether evil act. They did it as such and they will answer for it as such. At the same time God “crushed” His Son, as the scriptures prophesied, and meant it for absolute good. God was ultimately the one doing good although He brought it to pass through choices and actions of evil men.

God uses natural means to bring to pass what He has predestined to happen. Sometimes those means are the choices for evil by men and sometimes they are choices for good by men. But God is always the prime mover and the ultimate sovereign of the universe – in every way imaginable.

Just as often as for evil, men make choices and speak words either for good or in a neutral way.

E.G. ------

Paul, John, Luke, Peter, Moses etc. wrote letters and documents out of their own mind and for their own reasons. They made the choice to speak as they did. No doubt Luke made the free choice to protect his writings from the rain and river crossings They did such things by their own free will and for their own reasons. At the same time – it was God doing the same things, and for an altogether good reason. He wrote the scriptures and protected them from destruction. No doubt, He has protected the Word of God in like manner for the last 2000 years.

It intrigues me that so many “anti-sovereignty types” object to the idea that God predestines and that He is the prime mover of all things in His creation. At the same time – they, at least nominally, agree with the inspiration of scripture and the concurrent actions of God and men in their creation. Of course, as we see so often here in the forum,many of them really do not believe the scriptures.

Sometimes they actually show their true colors and call the scriptures “metaphors” and “tribal mythology”

Well – enough examples. The fact is that we (both good and evil men) are vessels through whom God works for an ultimate good. We are as free as entities who have their being “in God” can be. We are created in His image and are able to relate in a personal way with Him as He is with us.

Mystery though these things are – it is just the way it is.

Some people chafe at what those facts are and they cry “I want to be completely free” and “we are but robots and puppets if this is true”. They deny what the scriptures tell us about our nature as created and sustained beings. Apparently - they perhaps inwardly wish they could be gods.

But I, and other people of faith like me, embrace these facts and rejoice in the mystery that we can be loved by the creator and sustainer of all things in a personal way in spite of not being His equals.

No doubt – Pharaoh, if he was posting in this forum, would be one of the former complainers because his free choices were planned long before he made them – in order that they could play a small part in a great and mysterious tapestry of good that God will display in the ages to come.

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Hello Brother ...your post made me think about free will and the opposite which is often called "robotic , machines or puppets . "
For whatever reason ...it never occurred to me that there is another metaphor to use and that is children . Are children who are obedient to their parents good desires called robotic or puppets ? No for even unbelievers would perhaps agree that children can be ( are ) willful and rebellious .
Why is it a " bad" thing for children to be submitted to their Father's will ? Particularly if the Father wants the children to follow righteousness and be conformed into His image which leads to life eternal . Noah's sons were saved because they were obedient to their father . May we ( and the only way we are able ) by God's grace ( Jesus ) become children ...submitting ourselves to the Father of Spirits and live .

redleghunter said:

In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”​

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)​

Continuing in Exodus...

Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
​

Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.​

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

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the text also says Pharaoh hardened his own heart but somehow no one cares about that. The Hebrew mind reasoned in block logic where opposing thoughts may exist at the same time and they weren't supposed to be reconciled as our western mind demands but rather exist with tension; two different thoughts juxtaposed together describing man's sovereignty and God's or free will vs predestination and this is the tension. To me the text affirms both positions saying God is in control of all things and man makes his own choices but we are blinded by Pharaoh's choices and see God as the implicit force behind all of it. This, of course, is true but yet Pharaoh hardened his own heart... welcome to Hebrew block logic!

redleghunter said:

God was giving Pharaoh enough rope?

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Exactly Red! I arrived late and I don't want to be a distraction but initially Pharaoh hardened his heart, later God hardened his heart. Pharaoh still didn't intend to repent of his idolatry no matter what. If we are so in love with our sin that we harden our heart against God , God has a way of dealing with that, he will turn us over to our sin. A preacher friend of mine used to be fond of saying, sometimes the worst part of a sin, is the sin, I've found that to be true on so many levels. We don't really have a choice about being sinners, we do have a choice when it comes to our attitude toward God. When it comes to salvation we might be willing in our spirit but our flesh is weak. God knows that, he knows sin has gotten into every nook and cranny of our existence and we are helpless in and of ourselves. We have to come to that realization, and for whatever reason, Pharaoh was never going to.

Not trying to distract from the ongoing discussion, just thought it was an interesting question.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hammster said:

I’m not sure how that relates to my post.

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Perhaps I misunderstood your point but I thought you meant that if Pharaoh had repented then God’s plan would’ve failed.

Hammster said:

I guess it’s good for not only Israel, but for God’s plan, that He got lucky in that Pharaoh acted the way he did. Otherwise, God’s plan of redemption would have went right out the window.

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You point to what is an interesting question for me, as I think genuine freedom of choice exists for us, in that if God foresees not only key things, but instead of those every last tiny thing even the trivial....(everything instead of only crucial things, or key things...), then freedom would be an illusion to my understanding (though I'm aware that even our notions of causality are....*not* necessarily adequate even with correct premises and logic).

See, what came to mind is how in Genesis chapter 15 (which is also what this thread is about), the amazing foretelling, which culminates amazingly: " 16In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” -- God foreseeing that the Canaanite cities would continue deepening in evil (such as Deuteronomy 12:31, the greatest of all evils even) until that evil was in "full measure" warranting the entire and total and complete destruction, sometimes so that even the animals also should die, and all human souls sent on to the sorting out of the Day of Judgement, where the innocent will be separated from the guilty that haven't repented.

But, now it occurs to me that God foreseeing the continuing deepening evil of Canaan....

...is not at all the same as foreseeing everything each individual would choose. Those are two different things, just as a forecast that winter and cold temperatures will come is true, without saying the precise temperature months ahead of time in Milwaukee at 10:23am on Jan 1.

Two different things. The community as a whole level (like general weather generally) vs. the precise choices/actions of individuals including even little random ones. The former foretold, and the latter open.

So, perhaps that's how it all reconciles, with real choice intact, just as the scriptures would say to us in all the repeated commands and warnings and teachings. The teachings/commands are for people to hear and alter their choices, and the words cannot be empty.

redleghunter said:

Ok I ask for the purposes of the OP if you can try real hard to see the events as historical. Your position would be that if God truly hardened Pharaoh's heart as indicated in Exodus, then God would be to blame for all the events and deaths?

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If it were merely historical, then things happen as they happen, maybe with a purpose, maybe as a random occurrence: "...the rain falls on the just and the unjust."

If it were written metaphorically, then it was written to communicate a point: There was a purpose. So if one sees it as metaphorical, the answer to your question becomes more important.

Hammster said:

That’s what I meant. It had to do with Pharaoh. The leader of Egypt who had enslaved Israel.

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The Bible says God has put the governing authorities in place for His purpose. Romans 13:1-2

redleghunter said:

In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”​

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)​

Continuing in Exodus...

Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
​

Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.​

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

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It would seem ...

God sent 10 plagues as a demonstration of His power, Pharaoh at any time could have obeyed God (had choice) ... yet he did not. Each time Pharaohs (refusal) was his heart becoming more hardened. God gave Pharaoh these opportunities to change and he did not. God quit giving him opportunities and thus resulted in a total hardened heart ... that is no turning back to God.

God hardened Pharaohs heart by ending or limiting the opportunities for him to change, but also Pharaoh was given plenty of opportunities to change.

Perhaps an example of blasphemy.