The Free will of man?? A sincere seeker pleads for answers.

[alphanoodle]

I would so much like to rejoin this debate, but not as an enemy here to argue meaninglessly, but as a brother in Christ sharing a difference of perspective.
I have been watching from time to time, and as in the real world, I notice far too much emotionality and logic rather than mere weight of scripture.
1 John tells us that we have an anointing (the Spirit of truth that Christ promised), and he teaches us all things so that we need that no man to teach us. We are not 'natural men', as Paul told the Corinthians, but know all things in the spirit. We must not use feelings and natural logic when trying to search out the things of God. We must not attack each other and make value statements about each other.
I don't care if anyone is wrong or right, just sincere, and respectful of the Christ who is in each of us who are His. The Judge is at the door. Besides, it is clear that in just a few more earth days, God is going to come and wrap up our squabbles with the answer to our questions anyway.
Having said that, I would like to use the approach of merely presenting the verses of the bible that make me question what is true, and allow you, my brethren in Christ, to present your interpretation of them, so that I may decide whether of the arguments is the correct one:
What does it mean-
When Joseph told his brothers: Gen 50:20 You meant it for evil against me, , but God meant it for good, to bring about that many people should be kept alive.
When God told Abimelech - Gen 20:6 I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Gen 39:21 The Lord gave him (Joseph) favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.
Daniel 1:9 God gave Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the chief of the eunuchs.
Esther 4:1 And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
Neh 1:11 "...give success to your servant today, and grant him mercy in the sight of this man"
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.
Ezra 6:22 'for the Lord had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them,
Exodus 12:36 And the Lord gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians,
Ex 14:1 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
1Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Rom 9:18-19 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 11:7 What then? See ch. 9:31 Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest [ver. 25] were hardened, 8 as it is written, Isa. 29:10 “God gave them a spirit of stupor, Deut. 29:4; [Isa. 43:8; Jer. 5:21; Ezek. 12:2; Eph. 4:18]; See Matt. 13:14 eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Ps 105:25 25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
Deut 30:6 And [Jer. 31:33; 32:39, 40; Ezek. 11:19; 36:26, 27]; See ch. 10:16 the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, ver. 16 so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
Ezek 11:19 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(Ezekiel 36:26, ESV)
Jer 32:39 I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, [] for their own good and the good of their children after them.
Jer 32: 40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. [] And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
Jer 24:7 I will give them a heart to know that I am the LORD, [] and they shall be my people [] and I will be their God, [] for they shall return to me with their whole heart.
Eze 36:26,27 And I will give you [] a new heart, and [] a new spirit I will put within you. [] And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [] And I will put my Spirit within you, [] and cause you to walk in my statutes and [] be careful to obey my rules.
Hos 14:4 I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them.
Rom 11:26-27 25 ... hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant which I will covenant to them after those days, says the Lord: Giving My laws on their hearts, and I will write them on their minds;"
(Here's one about John the Baptist that seems to suggest that even before he was born and able to choose, or reach the so-called 'age of accountability')
Luke 1:15 And he will be filled of the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
(Before he was even born, he began his ministry as a witness of the Messiah, even causing his mother to be affected.)
Luke 1:41 And it happened, as Elizabeth heard Mariam's greeting, the babe in her womb leaped, and Elizabeth was filled of the Holy Spirit.
Jer 1:4 Then the word of Jehovah was to me, saying, 5 I knew you before I formed you in the belly; and before you came out of the womb, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.
Gal 1:15,16 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, 16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might [1] preach him among the Gentiles...
Rom 9:10-13 10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, [1] The elder shall serve the younger. * 13 Even as it is written, [1] Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. *
Matt 11:25 25 At that season Jesus answered and said, I [1] thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes:
1 Cor 1:25-28 26 For [1] behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called : * 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; 28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea [1] and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are... 31 that, according as it is written, [1] He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Matt 21:16 16 and said unto him, Hearest thou what these are saying? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea: did ye never read, [1] Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has perfected praise?
John 13:18 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 15:16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you
Deut 29:4 but Jehovah hath not given you a heart to know, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day
Jer 6:10 To whom shall I speak and give warning that they may hear? Behold, their ears are not circumcised, and they cannot listen.
Ezekiel 12:2 Son of man, you dwell in the midst of a rebellious house, who have eyes to see, but see not, who have ears to hear, but hear not, for they are a rebellious house.
Matthew 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be . 8 And those being in the flesh are not able to please God. 9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you
Rom 8: 11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
Titus 3:3 For we also once were senseless, disobedient, led astray, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
II Corinthians 4:4: In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
II Corinthians 3:14: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
Eph 2:2,3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. vs 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
II Corinthians 4:4:In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not
I John 5:19:We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
John 6:44:No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
Ephesians 1:4:even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
Romans 8:29:For those whom he foreknew he also predestined
Romans 8:30:And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5:he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:11:In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Revelation of John 13:8:and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb
Revelation of John 17:8: And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast
John 8:43:Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
Matthew 11:15:He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
John 10:26:But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Acts 2:23:Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 4:27,28 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
I Corinthians 10:6:Now these things took place as examples for us,
Acts 11:18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Acts 13:48:And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Acts 16:14:And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshiped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Isaiah 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?

People always say that those who believe in Sovereignty and Election are Calvinists, and that they do not regard the scripture; but I never, ever read Calvin, and it is commonly known that long before Calvin, such illustrious teachers as Augustine believed firmly in this doctrine.
Martin Luther, Spurgeon, Johnathan Edwards, the Puritans and Covenanters, and practically everyone since the reformation unto Wesley believed that it was just scripture. These are the people who brought us out of the dark ages of Papism, who literally established this present society and democracy, who established the ‘Age of Missions’ with their many covenants to God, who founded great Universities of theology and higher learning, and were single handedlly responsible for ‘The Great Awakening.’ They were the most educated and well thought minds of Christendom; and now people who cannot hold a candle to either their intellect or their theological exploration, nor even translate a single word of Greek or Hebrew, let alone an entire bible, dismiss them all with such scorn and disdain that it must surely anger God that this is how they say thank you to the cost they paid and the labor they put into their disciplines for the sake of our generations.
So here is merely a brief list of the non-existent scriptures that I, a nobody without even a high school education - a hillbilly, an orphan, and a street kid, discovered on my own.
If you can only answer with insults, then I do not count you as my brethren anyway, because this is not how my Lord commanded us to address each other.
But if you as true Christians, worthy of your comments to be regarded here, then please tell this poor moron how you explain these verses, so I will know how to decide who is right, and who is simply in need of more study perhaps.
God bless you in advance.

 

[Lee52]

I would so much like to rejoin this debate, but not as an enemy here to argue meaninglessly, but as a brother in Christ sharing a difference of perspective.
I have been watching from time to time, and as in the real world, I notice far too much emotionality and logic rather than mere weight of scripture.
1 John tells us that we have an anointing (the Spirit of truth that Christ promised), and he teaches us all things so that we need that no man to teach us. We are not 'natural men', as Paul told the Corinthians, but know all things in the spirit. We must not use feelings and natural logic when trying to search out the things of God. We must not attack each other and make value statements about each other.
I don't care if anyone is wrong or right, just sincere, and respectful of the Christ who is in each of us who are His. The Judge is at the door. Besides, it is clear that in just a few more earth days, God is going to come and wrap up our squabbles with the answer to our questions anyway.
Having said that, I would like to use the approach of merely presenting the verses of the bible that make me question what is true, and allow you, my brethren in Christ, to present your interpretation of them, so that I may decide whether of the arguments is the correct one:
What does it mean-
When Joseph told his brothers: Gen 50:20 You meant it for evil against me, , but God meant it for good, to bring about that many people should be kept alive. Romans 8, Ephesians 1 have the answer to this question.
When God told Abimelech - Gen 20:6 I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. Again, Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 will answer this, AND; GOD wanted to heal Abimelech and his kingdom and needed a way to show Abraham that he, Abimelech, was an honorable man. You must read Scripture in context with surrounding verses, both before and after the verse that you are interested in.

People always say that those who believe in Sovereignty and Election are Calvinists, and that they do not regard the scripture; but I never, ever read Calvin, and it is commonly known that long before Calvin, such illustrious teachers as Augustine believed firmly in this doctrine.
Martin Luther, Spurgeon, Johnathan Edwards, the Puritans and Covenanters, and practically everyone since the reformation unto Wesley believed that it was just scripture. These are the people who brought us out of the dark ages of Papism, who literally established this present society and democracy, who established the ‘Age of Missions’ with their many covenants to God, who founded great Universities of theology and higher learning, and were single handedlly responsible for ‘The Great Awakening.’ They were the most educated and well thought minds of Christendom; and now people who cannot hold a candle to either their intellect or their theological exploration, nor even translate a single word of Greek or Hebrew, let alone an entire bible, dismiss them all with such scorn and disdain that it must surely anger God that this is how they say thank you to the cost they paid and the labor they put into their disciplines for the sake of our generations.
So here is merely a brief list of the non-existent scriptures that I, a nobody without even a high school education - a hillbilly, an orphan, and a street kid, discovered on my own.
If you can only answer with insults, then I do not count you as my brethren anyway, because this is not how my Lord commanded us to address each other.
But if you as true Christians, worthy of your comments to be regarded here, then please tell this poor moron how you explain these verses, so I will know how to decide who is right, and who is simply in need of more study perhaps.
God bless you in advance.

I see in your post that you are taking one verse, out of context and asking about its meaning......... My spirit is wondering why.

You have posted several verses in such manner. It would take me an entire semester to go verse by verse and put them back into context and ask you what each meant to you within its own context.

Suffice it to say, the entire Old Testament was a testament to Jesus' coming and His purpose. It all leads up to the crucifiction of Jesus as a substitutional payment for all sin, for all time, for all who will accept that sacrifice. Throughout the OT, GOD is trying to make mankind understand His own nature and love of mankind. Man is the dense entity in the formula. We humans are slow learners when it comes to the things of GOD.

With each of the great theologians you mention, came further understanding of GOD and His nature. None of them had the entire picture. Wesley further clarified and focused that picture and it is still not perfectly clear to us humans. Wesley never intended to form a new denomination or bring division. He intended to bring about a condition whereby humans would accept revival through the moving of the Holy Spirit. He was preparing the ground for planting, so to speak.

Writers such as Jerry Cook and Jeff VanVonderen, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Smith, and others further focus GOD's nature more clearly. And even so, it is still not fully clear to us.

Until Christ Jesus' return, it will remain out of focus to us. But it is much, much clearer than it was during the Spanish inquisitions.

In as much as it is up to each of us, we are to live in peace with all men.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[alphanoodle]

Forgive me Lee, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe I didn't clarify what my purpose was. I didn't take anything out of context because my context is the question of God's sovereign, overriding will. I don't know what you think the post was directed toward. Maybe I placed the thread in the wrong category.
It shouldn't be that hard to answer for those who know what they believe. I can answer them easily. Those who look for some deep explanation are always trying to wrest with the scripture, to find some meaning that can't be readily seen. Jehovah's Witnesses do that. There are just too many scriptures to just dismiss them all that way (if you understand the question).
The law of scriptural interpretation is interpret scripture with scripture. I didn't present any argument at all. How can You say the question is taking it out of context? Just explain the scripture and don't cop out. Else wise, brother, you haven't done anything but take up space.
If you don't have a single answer, to even a single verse, then why did you reply? What was your point?

 

[Lee52]

Forgive me Lee, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe I didn't clarify what my purpose was. I didn't take anything out of context because my context is the question of God's sovereign, overriding will. I don't know what you think the post was directed toward. Maybe I placed the thread in the wrong category.
It shouldn't be that hard to answer for those who know what they believe. I can answer them easily. Those who look for some deep explanation are always trying to wrest with the scripture, to find some meaning that can't be readily seen. Jehovah's Witnesses do that. There are just too many scriptures to just dismiss them all that way (if you understand the question).
The law of scriptural interpretation is interpret scripture with scripture. I didn't present any argument at all. How can You say the question is taking it out of context? Just explain the scripture and don't cop out. Else wise, brother, you haven't done anything but take up space.
If you don't have a single answer, to even a single verse, then why did you reply? What was your point?

Here is your answer: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV

 

[bottomofsandal]

People always say that those who believe in Sovereignty and Election are Calvinists, and that they do not regard the scripture; but I never, ever read Calvin, and it is commonly known that long before Calvin, such illustrious teachers as Augustine believed firmly in this doctrine.
Martin Luther, Spurgeon, Johnathan Edwards, the Puritans and Covenanters, and practically everyone since the reformation unto Wesley believed that it was just scripture. These are the people who brought us out of the dark ages of Papism, who literally established this present society and democracy, who established the ‘Age of Missions’ with their many covenants to God, who founded great Universities of theology and higher learning, and were single handedlly responsible for ‘The Great Awakening.’ They were the most educated and well thought minds of Christendom; and now people who cannot hold a candle to either their intellect or their theological exploration, nor even translate a single word of Greek or Hebrew, let alone an entire bible, dismiss them all with such scorn and disdain that it must surely anger God that this is how they say thank you to the cost they paid and the labor they put into their disciplines for the sake of our generations.
So here is merely a brief list of the non-existent scriptures that I, a nobody without even a high school education - a hillbilly, an orphan, and a street kid, discovered on my own.
If you can only answer with insults, then I do not count you as my brethren anyway, because this is not how my Lord commanded us to address each other.
But if you as true Christians, worthy of your comments to be regarded here, then please tell this poor moron how you explain these verses, so I will know how to decide who is right, and who is simply in need of more study perhaps.
God bless you in advance.

My dear brother---you are like David, a man after God's heart. Threads can become like shark infested waters, especially when people "discuss" salvation. Unfortunately, some at CF are more interested in winning an argument or looking and appearing clever rather than discussing God's Truth. Life is too short for such nonsense.


You are a child of God, Jesus is your Savior and Lord, The Holy Spirit has sealed you unto The Day of Redemption. Let not your heart be troubled !

 

[alphanoodle]

My dear brother---you are like David, a man after God's heart. Threads can become like shark infested waters, especially when people "discuss" salvation. Unfortunately, some at CF are more interested in winning an argument or looking and appearing clever rather than discussing God's Truth. Life is too short for such nonsense.


You are a child of God, Jesus is your Savior and Lord, The Holy Spirit has sealed you unto The Day of Redemption. Let not your heart be troubled !

Sadly, I used to have fun exploring the deep theologies of God. I mean, it's like Solomon said, 'It is for God to hide an issue and for princes to search them out.' To ever plumb the unfathomable depths of the unknowable God!! My God, what an occupation! What a glad, labor intensive vocation! What a contribution if God has so equipped a mind to be able to do it!
But your words are perfect in description. These are 'shark-infested waters'. So I have lost my joy. I don't even have the motivation anymore. I'm just waiting around for the Lord to return, or for persecution and martial law to hit the free world, which ever comes first. Then life will have significance again! So called chrisitians will have something significant to discuss, like in the days of the reformation at the whitehorse inn! Maybe not so fun, but you get the point.

 

[Lee52]

Sadly, I used to have fun exploring the deep theologies of God. I mean, it's like Solomon said, 'It is for God to hide an issue and for princes to search them out.' To ever plumb the unfathomable depths of the unknowable God!! My God, what an occupation! What a glad, labor intensive vocation! What a contribution if God has so equipped a mind to be able to do it!
But your words are perfect in description. These are 'shark-infested waters'. So I have lost my joy. I don't even have the motivation anymore. I'm just waiting around for the Lord to return, or for persecution and martial law to hit the free world, which ever comes first. Then life will have significance again! So called chrisitians will have something significant to discuss, like in the days of the reformation at the whitehorse inn! Maybe not so fun, but you get the point.

Let me start this post with "I am praying that the Holy Spirit will begin to lead and guide you and that you accept His leading."

Then, I ask that you read Matthew chapter 7 and see if it applies to you right now?

We all go through times of trials and tribulations in our existence on this earth. Those times strengthen us for the deeper trials ahead due to our acceptance of Jesus as personal Savior and LORD.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[alphanoodle]

Let me start this post with "I am praying that the Holy Spirit will begin to lead and guide you and that you accept His leading."

Then, I ask that you read Matthew chapter 7 and see if it applies to you right now?

We all go through times of trials and tribulations in our existence on this earth. Those times strengthen us for the deeper trials ahead due to our acceptance of Jesus as personal Savior and LORD.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Lee, let's just pretend that I'm not as smart as you think I am, and why don't you just tell me exactly what in particular I'm supposed to see in Matt 7. It starts with judging and it ends with building your house on sand. There's a lot of material in between, so just make the point and I can better respond to it, or not.

 

[LOCO]

why don't you write one question at a time. Maybe for each verse you don't understand. We can then respond to each individual query. Your post is lengthy.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Lee, let's just pretend that I'm not as smart as you think I am, and why don't you just tell me exactly what in particular I'm supposed to see in Matt 7. It starts with judging and it ends with building your house on sand. There's a lot of material in between, so just make the point and I can better respond to it, or not.

Listen friend, don't worry what man thinks !!! It is irrelevant. We are God pleasers, not man-pleasers. Rather than sift through a chapter aimlessly, let's look at a promise of God instead. Let us strive for godly edification.


1 John 2:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[a] abide in Him.



We all have the same Holy Spirit. None of us received an inferior defective version. God gives the increase, we must wait for His revelation to us. Jesus promised that he who hungered & thirsted after righteousness would be filled. All things in Christ are already yours. Peter says He has given us eveything we need to pertaining to godliness-



2 Peter 1:2-3

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,



As for freewill, which was where this all began...I heard a few good lines from Adrian Rogers on the radio regrading freewill:

1) we are free to do anything we want

2) we are not free to do everything we ought



Therein is the problem with a freewill

 

[Lee52]

Lee, let's just pretend that I'm not as smart as you think I am, and why don't you just tell me exactly what in particular I'm supposed to see in Matt 7. It starts with judging and it ends with building your house on sand. There's a lot of material in between, so just make the point and I can better respond to it, or not.

GOD has a really neat process whereby the Holy Spirit ministers to us through His Word. I cannot tell you what you are supposed to garner from Scripture unless GOD leads me into that message. You and GOD alone know what you are searching for. I was guided to offer you that chapter, not verses of that Gospel according to....... I can only tell you what it says to me right now. Next week GOD may lead me to understand another of His principles contained therein.

In the mean time, I pray that He leads you to the understanding that He needs for you.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Lee52]

Listen friend, don't worry what man thinks !!! It is irrelevant. We are God pleasers, not man-pleasers. Rather than sift through a chapter aimlessly, let's look at a promise of God instead. Let us strive for godly edification.


1 John 2:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[a] abide in Him.



We all have the same Holy Spirit. None of us received an inferior defective version. God gives the increase, we must wait for His revelation to us. Jesus promised that he who hungered & thirsted after righteousness would be filled. All things in Christ are already yours. Peter says He has given us eveything we need to pertaining to godliness-



2 Peter 1:2-3

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,



As for freewill, which was where this all began...I heard a few good lines from Adrian Rogers on the radio regrading freewill:

1) we are free to do anything we want

2) we are not free to do everything we ought



Therein is the problem with a freewill

bottomofsandal,
One of the problems with your position of salvation of only the elect, predetermined by GOD before the fall of man due to Adam and Eve's sin is this: If you are actively involved in evangelism and spreading the Good News of Jesus' substitutional blood sacrifice for the remission of sin unto salvation. Then you are telling people that Jesus died for their sins.

Since you do not know whom is and whom is not predestined to Heaven and whom to Hell, part of your message makes you a LIAR. For everyone predestined to Hell before time began, Jesus did NOT die for their sins. For you to say otherwise makes you a LIAR.

Therein lies the problem with evangelism among the unsaved by those who believe in predestination. You never know when you are lying.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[bottomofsandal]

bottomofsandal,
One of the problems with your position of salvation of only the elect, predetermined by GOD before the fall of man due to Adam and Eve's sin is this: If you are actively involved in evangelism and spreading the Good News of Jesus' substitutional blood sacrifice for the remission of sin unto salvation. Then you are telling people that Jesus died for their sins.

Since you do not know whom is and whom is not predestined to Heaven and whom to Hell, part of your message makes you a LIAR. For everyone predestined to Hell before time began, Jesus did NOT die for their sins. For you to say otherwise makes you a LIAR.

Therein lies the problem with evangelism among the unsaved by those who believe in predestination. You never know when you are lying.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Dude,


Do you have man-crush on me ?

Are you following me around like a creeper ?



I am posting verses for strength and edification to a brother in Christ, and you barge in and declare my words lies. I don't know whether to be sad or laugh at your posts. Seriously, your words cannot be taken seriously.



First, you attack the teaching of a dead preacher (Adrian Rogers), and not with eisegeis, just plain dissent. You just don't like it. OK, the CF site is full of disagreement. Can you support why you disagree ? Just 'cuz ? Your are a purveyor of misinformation and misunderstanding. What are you basing your assumptions on other than they have been conjured at the cauldron of confusion ?



The preservation of vicissitudes reminds me of Open Theism by employing the pejoratives of Boyd and Pinnock. God is changing. God is evolving. God is waiting for us to act in order for Him to decide. These (and other) disparaging pronouncments directed at Holy God are nothing more than blasephemous ridicule. As a man I find them repugnant, and I can only imagine God's impatience at the fallacious teaching of men pontificating error regarding God's (fore)knowledge, power, will, and Sovereignty.



The preaching illustration you posted condemns yourself and your pov. I don't know why you posted it, other to belittle or attack someone or someone's pov since you casually throw it out there without any support. We know (because Jesus said it) that we are to preach without restraint and without regard for the audience of listeners. Do you believe the arm of The Lord is too short to save ? The efficacy is with God, not men. No one is withholding The Word of Life. Faith comes by hearing...(Romans 10), so we preach The Good News.



Your pov has the same outcome as my pov---everyone is not saved. I could say your pov is a lie because it gives false hope that someone is saved when they "convinced" themselves they made a decision or feel confident because they accepted an invitation, or subscribed to a formula that punches their membership card. The difference is that you believe man chooses by His own power, by his own reasoning, with his limited will and abilities, for his own benefit. I don't...

 

[Lee52]

Your last statement is what? Perhaps all of the rant that you directed at me?

Listen friend, don't worry what man thinks !!! It is irrelevant. We are God pleasers, not man-pleasers. Rather than sift through a chapter aimlessly, let's look at a promise of God instead. Let us strive for godly edification.


1 John 2:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[a] abide in Him.



We all have the same Holy Spirit. None of us received an inferior defective version. God gives the increase, we must wait for His revelation to us. Jesus promised that he who hungered & thirsted after righteousness would be filled. All things in Christ are already yours. Peter says He has given us eveything we need to pertaining to godliness-



2 Peter 1:2-3

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,



As for freewill, which was where this all began...I heard a few good lines from Adrian Rogers on the radio regrading freewill:

1) we are free to do anything we want

2) we are not free to do everything we ought



Therein is the problem with a freewill

 

[Lee52]

I am sure I will have a loving response to this. I just need to find my thesaurus to decode all of the big words first. I am so glad nobody in the Bible used those magnificent words. If they had, I would have missed the entire part about Jesus' blood being shed for me............

Dude,


Do you have man-crush on me ?

Are you following me around like a creeper ?



I am posting verses for strength and edification to a brother in Christ, and you barge in and declare my words lies. I don't know whether to be sad or laugh at your posts. Seriously, your words cannot be taken seriously.



First, you attack the teaching of a dead preacher (Adrian Rogers), and not with eisegeis, just plain dissent. You just don't like it. OK, the CF site is full of disagreement. Can you support why you disagree ? Just 'cuz ? Your are a purveyor of misinformation and misunderstanding. What are you basing your assumptions on other than they have been conjured at the cauldron of confusion ?



The preservation of vicissitudes reminds me of Open Theism by employing the pejoratives of Boyd and Pinnock. God is changing. God is evolving. God is waiting for us to act in order for Him to decide. These (and other) disparaging pronouncments directed at Holy God are nothing more than blasephemous ridicule. As a man I find them repugnant, and I can only imagine God's impatience at the fallacious teaching of men pontificating error regarding God's (fore)knowledge, power, will, and Sovereignty.



The preaching illustration you posted condemns yourself and your pov. I don't know why you posted it, other to belittle or attack someone or someone's pov since you casually throw it out there without any support. We know (because Jesus said it) that we are to preach without restraint and without regard for the audience of listeners. Do you believe the arm of The Lord is too short to save ? The efficacy is with God, not men. No one is withholding The Word of Life. Faith comes by hearing...(Romans 10), so we preach The Good News.



Your pov has the same outcome as my pov---everyone is not saved. I could say your pov is a lie because it gives false hope that someone is saved when they "convinced" themselves they made a decision or feel confident because they accepted an invitation, or subscribed to a formula that punches their membership card. The difference is that you believe man chooses by His own power, by his own reasoning, with his limited will and abilities, for his own benefit. I don't...

 

[Eddie L]

bottomofsandal,
One of the problems with your position of salvation of only the elect, predetermined by GOD before the fall of man due to Adam and Eve's sin is this: If you are actively involved in evangelism and spreading the Good News of Jesus' substitutional blood sacrifice for the remission of sin unto salvation. Then you are telling people that Jesus died for their sins.

Since you do not know whom is and whom is not predestined to Heaven and whom to Hell, part of your message makes you a LIAR. For everyone predestined to Hell before time began, Jesus did NOT die for their sins. For you to say otherwise makes you a LIAR.

Therein lies the problem with evangelism among the unsaved by those who believe in predestination. You never know when you are lying.

Be blessed,
Lee52

I'd never say in my evangelism that Jesus died for everybody's sins. I'd say that the blood of Christ has resulted in the forgiveness of sins to everyone that believes. I can't say to any particular person who doesn't believe whether or not Jesus died for their sins, because I don't know if they'll ever believe. I can say without flinching that if they believe it is because their sins have been nailed to the cross.

 

[lovenotwar]

I would so much like to rejoin this debate, but not as an enemy here to argue meaninglessly, but as a brother in Christ sharing a difference of perspective. I have been watching from time to time, and as in the real world, I notice far too much emotionality and logic rather than mere weight of scripture. 1 John tells us that we have an anointing (the Spirit of truth that Christ promised), and he teaches us all things so that we need that no man to teach us. We are not 'natural men', as Paul told the Corinthians, but know all things in the spirit. We must not use feelings and natural logic when trying to search out the things of God. We must not attack each other and make value statements about each other. I don't care if anyone is wrong or right, just sincere, and respectful of the Christ who is in each of us who are His. The Judge is at the door. Besides, it is clear that in just a few more earth days, God is going to come and wrap up our squabbles with the answer to our questions anyway. Having said that, I would like to use the approach of merely presenting the verses of the bible that make me question what is true, and allow you, my brethren in Christ, to present your interpretation of them, so that I may decide whether of the arguments is the correct one:



I guess it's just too much to ask of some people. No matter how much you plead for respect and love in the name of Christ, it means nothing to some people, and they come to the forum with only a single purpose in mind - to fight. That's all they do everywhere they go, every post, every thread. The original post pleaded for a godly, scriptural discussion, answering to nothing but scripture, interpreting scripture with scripture, not using human logic to argue, not using human reasoning, because God's thoughts and ways are not our ways. He uses the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. Logic makes faith meaningless. No wonder there is so much fighting. Anyone can have an opinion. People who troll a Christian site seeking excuses to insult and attack are not Christians. Anyone can pick up a bible and add a few verses to their discourse. But Jesus is more concerned with our attitudes than what we do. All the knowledge and logic in the world means nothing 'if we have not love' I beg of you, brethren, please don't even answer those in this forum who aren't regarding the bible, but just looking for a fight. You can turn off that person's comments in your profile with the ignore list. I do it all the time, because there are people so negative and combative that they don't even intend to bless anyone. They aren't believers; they are the people who will fall away when persecution comes, because they don't have a love for Christ or the word. Why isn't anyone answering with the word? Don't answer the wicked people pretending to be Christians. It makes us equal to them. Let's return to the original poster's intention. The Judge is standing at the door. He will come and separate those evil sheep very soon. They are just chaff; let them blow on past you.

 

[Lee52]

I'd never say in my evangelism that Jesus died for everybody's sins. I'd say that the blood of Christ has resulted in the forgiveness of sins to everyone that believes. I can't say to any particular person who doesn't believe whether or not Jesus died for their sins, because I don't know if they'll ever believe. I can say without flinching that if they believe it is because their sins have been nailed to the cross.

Sounds like at least a modicum of free will to me.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Lee52]

I would so much like to rejoin this debate, but not as an enemy here to argue meaninglessly, but as a brother in Christ sharing a difference of perspective. I have been watching from time to time, and as in the real world, I notice far too much emotionality and logic rather than mere weight of scripture. 1 John tells us that we have an anointing (the Spirit of truth that Christ promised), and he teaches us all things so that we need that no man to teach us. We are not 'natural men', as Paul told the Corinthians, but know all things in the spirit. We must not use feelings and natural logic when trying to search out the things of God. We must not attack each other and make value statements about each other. I don't care if anyone is wrong or right, just sincere, and respectful of the Christ who is in each of us who are His. The Judge is at the door. Besides, it is clear that in just a few more earth days, God is going to come and wrap up our squabbles with the answer to our questions anyway. Having said that, I would like to use the approach of merely presenting the verses of the bible that make me question what is true, and allow you, my brethren in Christ, to present your interpretation of them, so that I may decide whether of the arguments is the correct one:



I guess it's just too much to ask of some people. No matter how much you plead for respect and love in the name of Christ, it means nothing to some people, and they come to the forum with only a single purpose in mind - to fight. That's all they do everywhere they go, every post, every thread. The original post pleaded for a godly, scriptural discussion, answering to nothing but scripture, interpreting scripture with scripture, not using human logic to argue, not using human reasoning, because God's thoughts and ways are not our ways. He uses the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. Logic makes faith meaningless. No wonder there is so much fighting. Anyone can have an opinion. People who troll a Christian site seeking excuses to insult and attack are not Christians. Anyone can pick up a bible and add a few verses to their discourse. But Jesus is more concerned with our attitudes than what we do. All the knowledge and logic in the world means nothing 'if we have not love' I beg of you, brethren, please don't even answer those in this forum who aren't regarding the bible, but just looking for a fight. You can turn off that person's comments in your profile with the ignore list. I do it all the time, because there are people so negative and combative that they don't even intend to bless anyone. They aren't believers; they are the people who will fall away when persecution comes, because they don't have a love for Christ or the word. Why isn't anyone answering with the word? Don't answer the wicked people pretending to be Christians. It makes us equal to them. Let's return to the original poster's intention. The Judge is standing at the door. He will come and separate those evil sheep very soon. They are just chaff; let them blow on past you.

While I agree with the tone and premise of your post above, I would also invite you to practice what you preach and lovingly provide the said counsel to the OP and his over 50 Scriptures quoted. I attempted to do so and merely asked a question of the OP in my very first post. To which, I was attacked for my question. It has been my experience on these forums in CF, that when a person presents an overwhelming amount of disconnected Scripture references, that they are not being honest in their request. What does "IT" mean? followed by too many Scripture references to efficiently or effectively answer en mass is disengenuine at face value.

And so, what is the real question from the OP and what is the answer he seeks? He has a predetermined expectation of the answer, therefore, I suspect that he really does not want to read the Truth of GOD, but rather, want the truth of GOD according to himself. Am I wrong in my assessment? If so, what is the answer to the original question? Please, I am genuinely interested to know it.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[bottomofsandal]

bottomofsandal,
One of the problems with your position of salvation of only the elect, predetermined by GOD before the fall of man due to Adam and Eve's sin is this: If you are actively involved in evangelism and spreading the Good News of Jesus' substitutional blood sacrifice for the remission of sin unto salvation. Then you are telling people that Jesus died for their sins.

Since you do not know whom is and whom is not predestined to Heaven and whom to Hell, part of your message makes you a LIAR. For everyone predestined to Hell before time began, Jesus did NOT die for their sins. For you to say otherwise makes you a LIAR.

Therein lies the problem with evangelism among the unsaved by those who believe in predestination. You never know when you are lying.

Be blessed,
Lee52

I'd never say in my evangelism that Jesus died for everybody's sins. I'd say that the blood of Christ has resulted in the forgiveness of sins to everyone that believes. I can't say to any particular person who doesn't believe whether or not Jesus died for their sins, because I don't know if they'll ever believe. I can say without flinching that if they believe it is because their sins have been nailed to the cross.

IOW, if you believe Christ died for you...He in fact did

In a nutshell, Christ did not die for UNbelievers

The sin of unbelief is not nailed to the cross