• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Fossil Record Proves Speciation, Not Evolution of Lifeforms Observed

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
I still don't get exactly what you are are arguing against. You can correct me if I"m wrong, but you give the impression that you think "evolutionists" are dogmatically maintaining that random variation and selection is the only mechanism at work in evolution and that these EES people are just as much outsiders working against it as creationists.

In fact they are themselves "evolutionists" working to extend our understanding of evolution.
 
Upvote 0

Heissonear

Geochemist and Stratigrapher
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2011
4,962
982
Lake Conroe
✟201,642.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no non-conjecture evidence for evolution.

Start with the very foundational proof required for evolution: the fossil record.

There is not a single instance of a sequence of fossils unearthed showing morphological changes of one lifeform changing into another lifeform over time.

Zero fossil record evidence showing evolution of creatures occurred.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,218
7,482
31
Wales
✟429,582.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single

Why do you always lie about the fossil record?
 
Upvote 0

Heissonear

Geochemist and Stratigrapher
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2011
4,962
982
Lake Conroe
✟201,642.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why do you always lie about the fossil record?
Reply to the post. Present the sequence showing morphological changes of one lifeform changing into another lifeform over time. All the fossil details. Not conjecture-based assuptions.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,218
7,482
31
Wales
✟429,582.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Reply to the post. Present the sequence showing morphological changes of one lifeform changing into another lifeform over time. All the fossil details. Not conjecture-based assuptions.

It's pointless because it has been shown to you time and time and time and time again, and yet you just blithely ignore it, say that it doesn't exist, and then just go on and repeat the same lie again.
 
Reactions: VirOptimus
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,023
52,626
Guam
✟5,144,743.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
He has to - he has no other alternative.
The fossil record, if photographed in chronological order and made into an fps book, would show instant creation, not evolution.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
That’s because Natural selection has no power to create new traits. I am not sure what you mean. If you mean there are other forces besides random mutations that produce variations this is a well-known fact.

I thought it was quite clear that I was referring to how natural selection can spread traits from random mutations throughout an entire population.


What plant? What was the different environment? How did it change? Show me a source that tells me these SPECIFIC details. You do know what SPECIFIC means, don't you?


You gave examples? Okay. What organism did you mention in your example? And what specific phenotypic variation did you mention? You don't seem to know what the word SPECIFIC means.

As for your other questions, it is likely that there is some cost associated with such variations which outweigh the benefit gained. Sure, a six limbed animal might be able to run faster, but it will have the cost of added weight of two extra limbs, extra fuel requirements to power the muscles, added costs in developing those limbs... If the speed benefit it gains is only a little bit then the organism is going to be at a disadvantage overall, isn't it?


Funny, I always thought that the reason why tetrapods had four limbs was because we all evolved from a common ancestor with four limbs. Want to tell me why that is wrong?


Did you even read my reply to you from when you mentioned this earlier...? Because you have not addressed it at all.

The fact that an organism can have an effect on the environment does not mean that the organism was TRYING to have that effect. Bacteria may change the composition of the atmosphere, but that doesn't mean that they WANT the atmosphere so altered. The change comes simply as a by product of what they were doing to survive.

I haven't made any personal claims but have repeated what the scientific articles have said.

What you THINK they have said, I suspect.


Here's a question for you.

To show that you actually understand what you are talking about, explain it in simple terms, without any of this "rapid phenotypic evolution", and "simultaneous induction and selection of functional variants" stuff.
 
Reactions: VirOptimus
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,078
1,773
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟322,821.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
From my experience there seem to be a lot who support the standard theory who resist and even object to anything mentioned about the processes aassociated with the EES. There is an ongoing debate as to what the EES represents. Traditionalist who take a more genecentric and adaptive view of evolution see processes mentioned in the EES like development bias, non-genetic inheritance, niche construction and plasticity as just proximate and minor influences but not causes of evolution. But there are many that say theses influences are causes of evolution with some saying the standard theory needs to be extended and a growing number saying it represents a total shift and reinterpretation of evolution even to the extent of it representing a new paradigm.

From this standpoint, too much causal significance is afforded to genes and selection, and not enough to the developmental processes that create novel variants, contribute to heredity, generate adaptive fit, and thereby direct the course of evolution. Under this perspective, the sharp distinction between the proximate and the ultimate is undermined by the fact that proximate causes are themselves often also evolutionary causes [90]. Hence, the EES entails not only new research directions but also new ways to think about, and interpret, new and familiar problems in evolutionary biology.

Nevertheless, our analysis suggests that the EES is more than simply an extension of ‘business as usual’ science: it requires conceptual change [15]. The additional evolutionary processes that the EES highlights are more than just non-essential ‘add-ons’ [10] and may be as important in shaping evolution as those recognized within the field over the past century.


http://extendedevolutionarysynthesis.com/about-the-ees/

Those who support the EES support evolution and this has nothing to do with a religious verses evolution debate. Everything mentioned is backed by science and the differences in view about evolution would be the same debates that go on in other fields of science where new research and discoveries bring to light new evidence and therefore adjustments or re-evaluations of existing theories. From my point of view I agree with this and it is only my personal view that the EES can also support design in nature. My primary interest is to take a open view supported by the science. In the end the science will support any belief of there being a creator God.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Thats a non sequitur fallacy. It does not follow that if someone disputes evolution it is becuase of their religious belief.

Can you give me a single example of someone who disputes evolution, who isn't a theistic creationist of sorts?

In my experience, virtually all opposition to evolution theory as a whole, is religiously motivated.


Emphasis mine. This is very telling.
You're basically flat out saying that that is what you are going to believe simply because you want to believe it. It is "important" to you that this is true.

In other words, you are pretending to have the answers before asking the questions.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Genetic evidence showed E. Coli remained E. Coli.

And that they evolved novel genetics associated with novel traits.
No version of evolution says that e. coli would become non-e. coli.

That's just that strawman in your head.

Did you have specific genetic evidence you wished to discuss or just throwing out propaganda?

Thousands of shared ERV's between humans and chimps.
And a couple million other such examples.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
But a single mutation won’t change gills into lungs.

Nobody claims that to be the case.

It would take thousands over millions of years.
Not even then. Gills didn't turn into lungs.

So despite what you said you want us to believe that useless mutations are kept until they can all add up together to create a lung.
More then that: these mutations never occured... since gills didn't turn into lungs.

Why if I didn’t know better I would think you were implying intelligence working behind the scene, keeping mutations that do nothing yet until one has a fully functional lung from a gill.

If anything, it's quite clear that you indeed don't know better.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Since land life developed from sea life, gills sure did turn into lungs, or did you forget that part of the story?

It's with statements like this that you expose how ignorant you are on the stuff you pretend to have enough expertise to tell the actual experts that you know better... and as a result, how nobody who's understanding is on par with high-school biology can take you seriously....

http://homolog.us/blogs/ncrna/2015/01/27/evolution-of-lungs/

lungs did not come from gills.
In fact they coexisted. And in quite some species still alive today, they STILL coexist.

Name one statistical advantage of gills turning into lungs that won’t detract from the usefulness of gills, but add to the eventual functionality of lungs? What are these improvements?

Lungs basically evolved from the swim bladder. That's basically an inflatable "bag" inside the fish's body. It can push oxygen in that it captures through its gills, allowing the fish to control its buoyancy.

See that's the thing about evolution that people like you don't seem to get.... organs, traits, body parts,... can change function through time.

A childish approach would suggest that "wings are for flying - so what use is half a wing?".
A more sophisticated mind then says "a pinguin has wings, but it does not fly".

Or is this where we just ignore the details and revert to imagination and because we want it to be that way?

No, it is where we, once again, have to correct your strawman, point out your ignorance and mistakes and then try to explain it to you.

Only to then notice a few posts later that you are once again repeating the same nonsense and mistakes, having learned nothing at all.
 
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship








Bearing false witness much?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
From my experience there seem to be a lot who support the standard theory who resist and even object to anything mentioned about the processes aassociated with the EES.
Mostly they're just wary of Evangelicals trying to use things like EES as a "wedge" for their magic Bible-God.
 
Reactions: VirOptimus
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no non-conjecture evidence for evolution.

Start with the very foundational proof required for evolution: the fossil record.
-_- it's not required at all, it just is a part of the evidence that supports evolution. Genetics are a much stronger source of evidence at they are independent of fossils for the most part, aside from a few lucky finds such as those Neanderthal bones.

There is not a single instance of a sequence of fossils unearthed showing morphological changes of one lifeform changing into another lifeform over time.
I could make a flip book with the fossils relevant to human evolution that existed within the past 5 million years. I'd do it if I had any artistic talent to speak of.

Zero fossil record evidence showing evolution of creatures occurred.
Even if this were true, we can observe living populations evolve quite easily. Just pick an organism that reproduces very quickly and has a short lifespan.
 
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

epigenesis isn’t really Lamarckian . These abilities to adapt to different environments that can be passed to the next generation are already in the parent genome . It’s like a switch . If A happens then do B and if A doesn’t happen then do C
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,078
1,773
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟322,821.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Can you give me a single example of someone who disputes evolution, who isn't a theistic creationist of sorts?
There's plenty and I just gave a couple of examples previously with how mainstream scientists that support the EES disagree with the interpretation of Neo-Darwinism in how it makes natural selection and random mutations the main and often only force in evolution. So they dispute evolution as you see it. See it depends on what you mean by evolution as this is such a loose term. Many religious people believe in microevolution and not macro so technically they support evolution.

Today there are several different views about evolution, especially with recent discoveries. There is a growing number of people who do not support the traditionalist view ie (Modern Synthesis) and place more importance on other forces that influence change in living things. Considering the EES places emphasis on fundamentally different mechanisms that produce variation and minimize or bypass natural selection it is a new interpretation of evolution.

So there are plenty of people who dispute evolution who are not theistic creationists as you call it. There are also different versions of theistic evolution where some support evolution but not creationism in the same way theistic creationists believe. So I think you are being too narrow in your interpretation of what evolution is. And besides arguing from popularity and numbers is a logical fallacy.

In my experience, virtually all opposition to evolution theory as a whole, is religiously motivated.
Once again you are taking a black and white view of what evolution is. As stated above there are non-religious people including scientists who disagree with the Neo-Darwinian (Modern Synthesis) interpretation of evolution.

No this is your assumption because you stereotype Believers ie all believers must only disagree with evolution because of their religious belief. That discounts all theistic evolutionists, scientists and anyone else who have a religious faith. If all these people were honest they would say the same thing that though they may support evolution or disagree with it they also believe that a creator God was involved.

It is funny how some claim any opposition to evolution is only because of religious belief yet cite theistic evolutionists, the Pope and Catholic Church supporting evolution as evidence for evolution at the same time. That sort of exposes a hypocrisy as well.

We could also say that because you see evolution in such black and white terms and stereotype religious people that you can also be motivated by your own biased views on how you see things. Considering that Darwinian evolution is based on some non-verified science and major assumptions and that new discoveries are exposing those assumptions and how some supporters are sticking dogmatically to the traditionalist view we could also say that they too are only supporting evolution through their preconceived beliefs.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0