The Forgiveness Factor

Alright, this is my first post in this particular part of the forum. The question I pose today, is one that weighs on my mind from time to time about Christianity.

I've always heard that if you ask for forgiveness and truly mean it, God will forgive you no matter when you ask it. You could be on your death bed, or on the verge of being killed and God will forgive you and you will go to Heaven, etc...

Now let's look at Jeffrey Dahmer and other Psychos of his caliber. Let's say Dahmer asked God for forgiveness for all the wrong he did, and he was truly remorseful. Is he now in Heaven?

If he is in Heaven, than what about his victims? They died, being raped and murdered by a man who is now in Heaven but they possibly might be in Hell for not believing in God?

muslimsoldier4life said:

Alright, this is my first post in this particular part of the forum. The question I pose today, is one that weighs on my mind from time to time about Christianity.

I've always heard that if you ask for forgiveness and truly mean it, God will forgive you no matter when you ask it. You could be on your death bed, or on the verge of being killed and God will forgive you and you will go to Heaven, etc...

Now let's look at Jeffrey Dahmer and other Psychos of his caliber. Let's say Dahmer asked God for forgiveness for all the wrong he did, and he was truly remorseful. Is he now in Heaven?

If he is in Heaven, than what about his victims? They died, being raped and murdered by a man who is now in Heaven but they possibly might be in Hell for not believing in God?

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Yes. God knows the hearts of all people and so whoever believes in Jesus as Savior shall be saved. Of course, we still shall be judged based upon our deeds. If any psychos have been saved, I'm still not going to judge, but I don't think they had too many rewards in heaven.

As for the victims (anyone) yes, if Jesus is not their Savior, the judgement of their sin is on them.

Do you think that Dahmer was some special type of sinner that was beyond forgiveness?

Alright, this is my first post in this particular part of the forum. The question I pose today, is one that weighs on my mind from time to time about Christianity.

I've always heard that if you ask for forgiveness and truly mean it, God will forgive you no matter when you ask it. You could be on your death bed, or on the verge of being killed and God will forgive you and you will go to Heaven, etc...

Now let's look at Jeffrey Dahmer and other Psychos of his caliber. Let's say Dahmer asked God for forgiveness for all the wrong he did, and he was truly remorseful. Is he now in Heaven?

If he is in Heaven, than what about his victims? They died, being raped and murdered by a man who is now in Heaven but they possibly might be in Hell for not believing in God?

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Yes, possibly.

You seem to be thinking that some are more deserving of heaven than others and some more deserving of hell. But this is not God's view. You see, no one is in heaven because they deserve to be there. What we all deserve is to be in hell - every single one of us. This is because we have all sinned against the Almighty Creator of the Universe. "There is none righteous, no, not one," (Ro. 3:10) the Bible says.

The only way to enter heaven is through faith in Christ as one's Saviour and Lord. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Ac. 4:12) God holds out this gift of salvation and reconciliation to Himself through Christ to any who wish to take it. That includes people like Jeffrey Dahmer. Would you despise God's mercy and grace? It is the same mercy and grace that makes salvation available to you as well.

Selah.

muslimsoldier4life said:

Alright, this is my first post in this particular part of the forum. The question I pose today, is one that weighs on my mind from time to time about Christianity.

I've always heard that if you ask for forgiveness and truly mean it, God will forgive you no matter when you ask it. You could be on your death bed, or on the verge of being killed and God will forgive you and you will go to Heaven, etc...

Now let's look at Jeffrey Dahmer and other Psychos of his caliber. Let's say Dahmer asked God for forgiveness for all the wrong he did, and he was truly remorseful. Is he now in Heaven?

If he is in Heaven, than what about his victims? They died, being raped and murdered by a man who is now in Heaven but they possibly might be in Hell for not believing in God?

Click to expand...

MY BROTHER,

i think your question might be answered by Jesus' dealings with the thief on the cross next to Him: "One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, 'Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!
But the other one answered, and rebuking Him said, 'Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.' And he was saying, 'Jesus, remember me when you come in Your kingdom!'
"And He said to him, 'TRULY I SAY TO YOU, TODAY YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.' " (Luke 23:43)

In God's eyes, when a person repents--feels sorrow and contrition for their sins which causes them to totally change their way of thinking, feeling, and acting and surrender themselves completely to God's will--then, in His eyes, that person is a new creation and the old man--the sinful, evil, "Psycho" is gone in a flash and all has become new--and thus all the old is forgiven, never to be considered again.

Allah is a god of rigid and unyielding justice; Abba, our Father, is a God of mercy, compassion, and grace. Given my sinful past and all the pain i have inflicted upon everyone i came into contact with back in the day, i praise Him for His forgiveness and mercy. i have much sorrow regarding my past and all the people i have injured, and i do what i can to make amends--primarily by praying for my victims and asking God to heal the damage i inflicted on them.

ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim

Man looks on the outer appearance, but God sees the heart (1Sam 16.7). Dahmer apparently did repent. You can view his interview on youtube. What he did was horrible, but the victims' relationship with God is another matter altogether, and we don't have enough information to render eschatological judgments.

I know Muslims say that God is merciful and compassionate. There's a difference between justice and mercy. Christ said (directly quoting from Hosea), "'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." God desires that all should come to repentance and salvation. He judges and knows the hearts of everyone. The truth is we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God- but God has made repentance and salvation possible for us.

If he is in Heaven, than what about his victims? They died, being raped and murdered by a man who is now in Heaven but they possibly might be in Hell for not believing in God?

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Heaven isn't sitting on clouds, playing harps, and cavorting with virgins who cater to our biological impulses. Heaven is a state of being in the direct presence of the living God and participating in His divine energies. In other words, eternity for those who are saved, is worshipping God- and we can't really conceive of eternity as we're too concerned about concepts of time that will be meaningless. Nobody experiencing heaven is going to be at all concerned about anything that happened to them in the past- as everyone is going to be overwhelmed by the holiness of God's presence and worshipping Him. There's no boredom or feelings of that being lame.

Also, this used to be on wikipedia at one time, but I can't seem to find it anymore:

"For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

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We see God as love. Christ is the light. Think of it this way. I'm sure any who've read the scriptures before recall the story of the three youths in the fiery furnace. The fire was made extremely hot, yet the three youths were able to walk in the furnace without being burned. However, others died from the same heat, and weren't even in the furnace. The heat didn't change for anyone. I'm likely not explaining this well- but there's a bit of it- anyway.

muslimsoldier4life said:

Alright, this is my first post in this particular part of the forum. The question I pose today, is one that weighs on my mind from time to time about Christianity.

I've always heard that if you ask for forgiveness and truly mean it, God will forgive you no matter when you ask it. You could be on your death bed, or on the verge of being killed and God will forgive you and you will go to Heaven, etc...

Now let's look at Jeffrey Dahmer and other Psychos of his caliber. Let's say Dahmer asked God for forgiveness for all the wrong he did, and he was truly remorseful. Is he now in Heaven?

If he is in Heaven, than what about his victims? They died, being raped and murdered by a man who is now in Heaven but they possibly might be in Hell for not believing in God?

Click to expand...

The emphasis is on God's mercy. He is infinitely and wonderfully merciful toward all. That's at the heart and soul of Christianity.

As such the question is not if Dahmer is forgiven, then his victims are now rotting in Hell; but rather that God always acts mercifully, even toward those we deem least worthy. Since forgiveness has nothing to do with our "worthiness" but always with God's graciousness.

Nothing says that the victims are rotting in Hell--God is infinitely and ever-merciful.

St. Isaac the Syrian powerfully, I believe, states:

"Let us not be in doubt, O fellow humanity, concerning the hope of our salvation, seeing that the One who bore sufferings for our sakes is very concerned about our salvation; God’s mercifulness is far more extensive than we can conceive, God’s grace is greater than what we ask for."

Elsewhere writing,

"What is a merciful heart? It is a heart on fire for the whole of creation, for humanity, for the birds, for the animals, for demons, and for all that exists. By the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful person pour forth tears in abundance. By the strong and vehement mercy that grips such a person’s heart, and by such great compassion, the heart is humbled and one cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in any in creation. For this reason, such a person offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm her or him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner such a person prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns without measure in a heart that is in the likeness of God."

This is mercy. It extends endlessly toward all and to everyone--even to the "worst" among us. This is why we speak of God's work through Jesus as Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

The Apostle Paul before becoming a Christian, started out doing what he thought was right torturing, imprisoning and killing wonderful Christians, yet God forgave him.

The problem is not with God forgiving people that is what God is wanting to do, the problem is with people being willing enough to humbly accept pure charity. People just do not like to accept pure charity (especially in the form of forgiveness where the giver paid a huge price to extend the charity).

muslimsoldier4life said:

Alright, this is my first post in this particular part of the forum. The question I pose today, is one that weighs on my mind from time to time about Christianity.

I've always heard that if you ask for forgiveness and truly mean it, God will forgive you no matter when you ask it. You could be on your death bed, or on the verge of being killed and God will forgive you and you will go to Heaven, etc...

Now let's look at Jeffrey Dahmer and other Psychos of his caliber. Let's say Dahmer asked God for forgiveness for all the wrong he did, and he was truly remorseful. Is he now in Heaven?

If he is in Heaven, than what about his victims? They died, being raped and murdered by a man who is now in Heaven but they possibly might be in Hell for not believing in God?

Click to expand...

So you are saying that there are some people so sick that even God cannot heal them?

ebia said:

So you are saying that there are some people so sick that even God cannot heal them?

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That is not what I stated at all. Please re-read my original post

As long as we are living we must repent & show works worthy of it:


Ezekiel 33:10-20

King James Version (KJV)

10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.


Acts 26:17-20

King James Version (KJV)

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.



We can be forgiven to the moment of our death:


Luke 23:39-43

King James Version (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

muslimsoldier4life said:

That is not what I stated at all.

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Not directly, but its the implication.

All who are willing to be healed may be part of God's kingdom, no matter how sick they were before. All who not willing won't be.

When the Lord Jesus forgave Zaccheus, Zaccheus responded that he would make restitution to his victims. Perhaps Dahmer now has a chance in some way to do likewise.