The "First Cause" Argument.

[Data]

What I really do not understand is why God is always exempt from this. Apparently, everything needs a cause, and the first cause was God. But who caused God? Was he always there? Why can't this be the same for the Universe?

Isn't this blatent hypocrisy? If not, creationists are welcome to explain this in greater depth.

Discuss.

 

[Michali]

God does not require dimensions, but the universe does.

Editing- I believe God, being supreme in every way, has the ability to add value to nothing. I don't believe that nothing can add value to itself.

The universe always existing seems like the only true "cause" for the aetheist to me.

 

[mo.mentum]

What I really do not understand is why God is always exempt from this. Apparently, everything needs a cause, and the first cause was God. But who caused God? Was he always there? Why can't this be the same for the Universe?

Isn't this blatent hypocrisy? If not, creationists are welcome to explain this in greater depth.

Discuss.

Everything needs a Cause because you can go back in time to a point where that Cause hasn't happened, so the event hasn't taken place.

A ball at the top of a hill will not start rolling down unless you push it, or cause it to roll. But there was always that time before you pushed it in which the "Cause" for its rolling didn't happen.

Now, how would God have such a thing, if He created Time. Time and Space are both His creations and subject to Him. If He has no Time and is Eternal and Infinite, then He needs no cause. He just Is.

You sound like someone who says, "If God created a huge rock than nothing can lift, can He lift it?" And the obvious answer is always YES because He and His creation are completely seperate. The watchmaker isn't affected by what happens to the watch he builds.

Get it?

 

[armed2010]

God does not require dimensions, but the universe does.

Editing- I believe God, being supreme in every way, has the ability to add value to nothing. I don't believe that nothing can add value to itself.

The universe always existing seems like the only true "cause" for the aetheist to me.

Why does god not require dimensions, and who says that dimensions were required in the first place in order for dimensions to come about?

 

[mo.mentum]

Because God created dimensions. If He is Infinite and unbound, He has no dimensions. But in a limited existence like ours, we do need them.

 

[mo.mentum]

He created them for us and the rest of the universe, He is completely external to that system.

 

[Michali]

Why does god not require dimensions, and who says that dimensions were required in the first place in order for dimensions to come about?

God is limitless. Apply any situation and all impossibilities are possible. And, the singularity theory, may be true, but what caused it to spread out is a question. Still it has a value of 1 and nothing more. How could "one" be reactive to itself?

 

[mo.mentum]

By having Will and Intent? Wisdom and Power? Might and Majesty?

God is 0 dimensions. Everything persishes and disappears, save His Face.

 

[bishnu]

The question really is why is god does not need to be caused and why the universe must be. I would agree if there was a god that created the universe he would be able to watch the universe form a disitance and he could be eternal and infinite, but i dont think he would be timeless. For in order with god to interact with people and be personal he would have to have some sense of time. Anyway i dont see why the universe cant be eternal and infinite. ANd anyways how do you know everything needs a cause. This obersivation might be true in what we are able to easily observe, but it might not be true about everything.

For if god is enternal and infinite then there is one thing that came into exisitence without aid, so why is this ability then only exclusive to him?

 

[chilehed]

"Summa Contra Gentiles", by St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[notto]

What I really do not understand is why God is always exempt from this. Apparently, everything needs a cause, and the first cause was God. But who caused God? Was he always there? Why can't this be the same for the Universe?

Isn't this blatent hypocrisy? If not, creationists are welcome to explain this in greater depth.

Discuss.

Although I'm not a creationist, I'll give it a shot.

It is not a hypocrisy because by definition, God does not need a first cause.

God could have blue hair for no reason, if by definition, God had blue hair.

 

[Ryoko Ozaki]

It seems that all those that believe in a creator have lost all of their sense to understand logic. The logic of matter always being here is the same as God always being here but is more believable because we can see matter but not God.

Also, since nothing is constant nothingness isn't either and when change occurs in nothing then it becomes something.

 

[Michali]

Your assuming God and something else that exists are bound by the same rules. But the universe is bound by limitations, which God is not. God does not equivilate to matter.

 

[mo.mentum]

It seems that all those that believe in a creator have lost all of their sense to understand logic.

Don't generalize. Not all religions rely on Myth to explain the Universe. In fact, God is inviting us and challenging us to understand His Work. How else can He show Himself to us if not through what He creates? Come on! Open your eyes

The logic of matter always being here is the same as God always being here but is more believable because we can see matter but not God.

Who said that matter is always "being". Have you not understood Quantum theory? Basically, if you try to look at a subatomic particle or measure it, you can't do it without affecting it. You don't know how a certain light photon is polarised, until you measure it. That's like not being able to see the color of a train until it's right in front of you. Everything is a probability!! Each photon has a 10% chance of passing through the mirror instead of coming back to your eyes. We can't know in advance WHICH photon will reflect until it actually does. NOTHING IS CONSTANT ABOUT MATTER. That's what science is finding out. The laws of Newton are gone. This is Einstein's Relativity now.

What's keeping it all together then? You figure it out. Einstein said God doesn't play dice. It disturbed him that matter was so unstable. It actually does mean that the Universe is an "illusion". Matter is nothing but a figment of our conscience. All we perceive is information fed directly into our "soul".

My God didn't just turn on a switch and there was the universe and He just watched from a distance. NO! My God is Ever-Living and Active in His Creation.

Yes He is Eternal and Infinite in Might and Power. Because is All Wise, He knows all the Perfect ways in which to make something. Our Blue Planet is a Sign, our layers of atmosphere are a Sign. Your detailed finger prints are a Sign.

Every instant in time is created by Him, one after the other, like frames of a movie.

That is how He is Timeless and Eternal. He is closer to us than our juggular veins. God, there is nothing worthy of worship but Him.

Also, since nothing is constant nothingness isn't either and when change occurs in nothing then it becomes something.

Almost right. But a bit confused. There is no "nothingness" or "empty space", quanta of energy can "materialize" out of "nothing" into two opposing particles, example: proton and anti-proton..usually they re-annihalate themselves and disperse back into energy.

The only REAL nothing, as defined by physicist, is a point of ZERO volume. ie: a point before the universe started expanding from a single point. So basically, the Universe came into being out of a point of ZERO volume, or out of NOTHING. And what did God do? Create the Universe out of Nothing!

Blessed be Allah, Lord of the Universe, Master of All Affairs.

 

[Jet Black]

Each photon has a 10% chance of passing through the mirror instead of coming back to your eyes. We can't know in advance WHICH photon will reflect until it actually does. NOTHING IS CONSTANT ABOUT MATTER. That's what science is finding out. The laws of Newton are gone. This is Einstein's Relativity now.

what you just described was quantum mechanics, not relativity.

What's keeping it all together then? You figure it out. Einstein said God doesn't play dice. It disturbed him that matter was so unstable.

matter is very stable. apart from some funny stuff that isn't used in anything useful, like top quarks. Einstrin's problem was with probability. he didn't like it.

It actually does mean that the Universe is an "illusion". Matter is nothing but a figment of our conscience. All we perceive is information fed directly into our "soul".

it doesn't mean that at all.

The only REAL nothing, as defined by physicist, is a point of ZERO volume. ie: a point before the universe started expanding from a single point. So basically, the Universe came into being out of a point of ZERO volume, or out of NOTHING. And what did God do? Create the Universe out of Nothing!

zero "three dimensional volume", and you are applying GR at quantum scales where it isn't valid in order to come to this conclusion anyway, so the proposition is meaningless.

 

[mo.mentum]

what you just described was quantum mechanics, not relativity.

Right, i started out with quantum theory though, i lapse sometimes

matter is very stable. apart from some funny stuff that isn't used in anything useful, like top quarks. Einstrin's problem was with probability. he didn't like it.

it's not stable if u can't directly measure it, is it? the only time matters forms anything coherent is when it actually does something. like go through a mirror or even be detected.

it doesn't mean that at all.
zero "three dimensional volume", and you are applying GR at quantum scales where it isn't valid in order to come to this conclusion anyway, so the proposition is meaningless.

no the nothingness im applying is to all space.

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

Claiming what god did, how he did it, why, etc... are all pointless. There just isn't enough scripture to explain alot of those questions.

Time would have to be created with God. So if God is eternal so is time.

Guess you'd just have to ask God to find out since there is no way any mortal could possibly know.

 

[mo.mentum]

None of it is speculation. Time is a created thing, God is independant of it. The space/time continuum is created and interlaced. We perceive time because we're in it. He's Eternal because He's timeless.

In the Qur'an God compares His day to 1000 years or 50000y years of ours..which indicates that time means nothign to Him.

 

[Jet Black]

Right, i started out with quantum theory though, i lapse sometimes

no worries

it's not stable if u can't directly measure it, is it? the only time matters forms anything coherent is when it actually does something. like go through a mirror or even be detected.

be a little careful. stable means "does it last or not" things like c14 are unstable. things like single protons are incredibly stable.

no the nothingness im applying is to all space.

that's emptiness though (although it isn'T really all that empty)

 

[Michali]

Claiming what god did, how he did it, why, etc... are all pointless. There just isn't enough scripture to explain alot of those questions.

Time would have to be created with God. So if God is eternal so is time.

Guess you'd just have to ask God to find out since there is no way any mortal could possibly know.

I agree that asking why God did something is pointless. But, it is true that we can say that God has conceived of and created time. God can do anything, including existing outside of periodical recordings- meaning we could not see him do something frame by frame. He may be doing something impossible, but that is because he can.

Surely if existence is his conception, then he can do much more than what can be conceived by our minds.