The firmament and the KJV.

Valetic · Jun 8, 2018

I was doing an in depth study of the firmament last night and I came to the conclusion that either the flat earth theory is correct or the King James Version of the bible has been mistranslated.

KJV Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

A quick google interlinear review of these scriptures will reveal that the word firmament here is translated from the Hebrew word רָקִ֫יעַ or raqia (raw-kee'-ah) which is defined as an extended surface, expanse, or the visible arch of the sky.

When you read verse 8 though you may notice something.

KJV Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Did you see it? The H in Heaven is capitalized like the firmament is a "place" and not a "thing." You know like how you would name a city and capitalize it's first letter eg. Chicago, but you wouldn't capitalize "the sky" in a sentence or "sky" unless their was a named location people went called "Sky." This is basic English stuff here. The sky as a noun is a "thing" and not a significant location people go like a city or Heaven.

The word Heaven in verse 8 in Hebrew is שָׁמַ֫יִם or shamayim (shaw-mah'-yim) which DOES mean "sky" but CAN ALSO be used to refer to Heaven.

So as to why the KJV translates like this is beyond me, but it makes me not want to read it other than for parallel studies or unless I was a flat earther.

tampasteve · Jun 8, 2018

Valetic said:
So as to why the KJV translates like this is beyond me, but it makes me not want to read it other than for parallel studies or unless I was a flat earther.

^^^This.
Translators will always have to make compromises when translating into different languages. Precisely, anyone desiring to do in depth study should use parallel or even better, have a basic knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew - or at least an interlinear Bible. I like to use a combination of KJV, Artscroll Tanach, and ESV as well as a interlinear Bible for more in-depth study.

ViaCrucis · Jun 8, 2018

Valetic said:
I was doing an in depth study of the firmament last night and I came to the conclusion that either the flat earth theory is correct or the King James Version of the bible has been mistranslated.

KJV Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

A quick google interlinear review of these scriptures will reveal that the word firmament here is translated from the Hebrew word רָקִ֫יעַ or raqia (raw-kee'-ah) which is defined as an extended surface, expanse, or the visible arch of the sky.

When you read verse 8 though you may notice something.

KJV Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Did you see it? The H in Heaven is capitalized like the firmament is a "place" and not a "thing." You know like how you would name a city and capitalize it's first letter eg. Chicago, but you wouldn't capitalize "the sky" in a sentence or "sky" unless their was a named location people went called "Sky." This is basic English stuff here. The sky as a noun is a "thing" and not a significant location people go like a city or Heaven.

The word Heaven in verse 8 in Hebrew is שָׁמַ֫יִם or shamayim (shaw-mah'-yim) which DOES mean "sky" but CAN ALSO be used to refer to Heaven.

So as to why the KJV translates like this is beyond me, but it makes me not want to read it other than for parallel studies or unless I was a flat earther.

The English word "firmament" is derived from Latin, firmamentum. Both are used to translate a particular Hebrew word רָקִ֫יעַ‬ (raqya). The noun raqya comes from the verb raqa, meaning "to stamp out" "to beat" "to spread out", i.e. like taking metal and beating it out into a bowl shape. In the cosmology of the ancient near east the earth was conceived as being covered by a solid dome which held back the waters above (it was also believed that there were waters above the firmament, which is where rain came from).

Your two choices aren't the only choices available. There's a third possibility: The Bible uses the language of the people and culture in which it was written, and thus since the writers of the Old Testament held to a bronze age, near eastern view of how the world worked, that is the language they used when they wrote. The point of the Bible isn't to give us lessons about the shape of the earth, or astronomy, or any such thing; the point of the Bible is Jesus Christ and the salvation we have in Him.

The KJV doesn't mistranslate anything here, "firmament" is an acceptable way to refer to the firm, solid dome which ancient people believed existed. And no, the earth is not flat.

There is no firmament, it doesn't exist and has never existed, it was an idea held by people who didn't know any better. That isn't a flaw in the Bible, since that's not the point of the Bible. The Bible records things in the language and culture of the people who wrote it; and not all the ideas of those ancient people are necessarily true. But, again, the point of the Bible isn't to tell us what the earth looks like, but to point us to Jesus Christ and the salvation we have in Him.

Jesus is the Word of God, the Bible is the sacred collection of books received and accepted by the Church which we confess points to Jesus, and on this account they are the inspired word of God. Since through them the Holy Spirit has spoken and does speak to us.

-CryptoLutheran

DaveDavids · Jun 8, 2018

It's just a convention of astronomy for recording information based on a local horizonal coordinate system, established with a pendulum by Babylonian priest / astronomers

The earth IS flat, for the purpose of this convention, this is rather basic astronomy / math that is thousand of years old

The nadir (UK: /ˈnædɪər/), (US: /ˈneɪdɪər/) (from Arabic: نظير‎ / ALA-LC: naẓīr, meaning "counterpart"[a]) is the direction pointing directly below a particular location; that is, it is one of two vertical directions at a specified location, orthogonal to a horizontal flat surface there.

The use of the " dome " however is roughly Neo-Babylonian and does not date to much further previous . You can easily see from Babylonian myths of Tiamat the " dragon " ( What the " dome " was made from, it's skin and bones ) this is not that old, relatively speaking

Orthogonal:

adjective

1.
of or involving right angles; at right angles.

It's rather amusing to see so many arguments about whether the earth is flat and not one them touch on the fact that is IS considered flat for the purpose of recording ephemeris ( astronomy observations )

Also, standard water clocks are based on this measure of 180 degrees, but x2 = the nominality of one day in 25,920 parts

If you have any interest in the Jewish ( Babylonian ) calendar or metrological conventions in Mesopotamia, ask away

JIMINZ · Jun 8, 2018

.......

DaveDavids · Jun 8, 2018

Strange, a " garden " was a grain-based water clock measure used by priests that timed a half rotation of Earth, ie 180 degrees, ie a " half sphere, ie a " dome

In fact the " garden " was a rather standard measure for thousands of years

Valetic · Jun 8, 2018

JIMINZ said:
.

I believe all of your observations are true.
When you think about it, Heaven is a place, and The Garden of Eden was a place as well.

My understanding of the same passages has always been, the Earth was Flat, until the Flood.

We know from observation, all of the Land Mass was together.
When you look at a Globe, is it possible to place all of the land mass together on the Globe without it's weight causing the Mass to always end up on the bottom where the South Pole is?

How could the Earth spin on it's axis if the weight was not distributed around the Globe as it is now, having the center of weight so heavy on one side of the Earth, would cause the Earth to wobble off into Outer Space.

We know now that there are Tectonic plates which keep moving and keep the Earth balanced, but when the Earth was Created, why did it have to be in the form of a Globe?

Could that belief just be our assumption because, that is what we now know about our Earth it is a Globe.

Scripture says there was a man.

Gen. 10:25
And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.

1Ch. 1:19
And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.

We could take both of these verses to mean, Peleg was born when the Language was Confounded, but why would the word DIVIDED be used instead of CONFOUNDED, because Confounded had already been used to describe what happened at Babel.

Could the word Divided be in reference to the People being divided according to Language, sure it could, but it says, when Peleg was born, "The Earth Was Divided"

The Earth when it was Created was said to be very good by God, you have just come across something in Scripture which says the Earth was FLAT, are you saying it is because of the Translation of the KJV, would you not find the same if you studied as hard using every other Version?

The Bible is either True or it isn't, did God Create the Earth, if you believe He did, then you have to reconcile how He Created it with what you believe about Geology.

All I am saying is, we don't know for sure, but we do have a Scriptural record, how we believe that record is what is most important.

We have the choice to refuse what has been written, either because we apply what we know now against what we read, and knowledge says we are a Globe therefore we must have always been a Globe, or that the Translators of the KJV screwed up.

I have used this understanding of how things were then, and are now to explain to myself that it is possible for both to be correct and not question the validity of the Bible as written.....we just don't know.

Hope this gives you something to think about and possibly answer some of the questions you haven't even asked yet.

Have a God Blessed day

I never said I found that the earth was flat through scripture. I meant that if this translation were accurate that it would go well with flat earth theory. Thanks for input btw.

Valetic · Jun 8, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
The English word "firmament" is derived from Latin, firmamentum. Both are used to translate a particular Hebrew word רָקִ֫יעַ‬ (raqya). The noun raqya comes from the verb raqa, meaning "to stamp out" "to beat" "to spread out", i.e. like taking metal and beating it out into a bowl shape. In the cosmology of the ancient near east the earth was conceived as being covered by a solid dome which held back the waters above (it was also believed that there were waters above the firmament, which is where rain came from).

I'm not talking about what ancient Hebrews believed the earth was like, I'm talking about what the bible says.

ViaCrucis said:
Your two choices aren't the only choices available. There's a third possibility: The Bible uses the language of the people and culture in which it was written, and thus since the writers of the Old Testament held to a bronze age, near eastern view of how the world worked, that is the language they used when they wrote. The point of the Bible isn't to give us lessons about the shape of the earth, or astronomy, or any such thing; the point of the Bible is Jesus Christ and the salvation we have in Him.

I believe the bible is God's revealed truth to mankind. If any part of it were untrue then it would not be there. Simple. But this is why we do in depth studies. To increase our knowledge of the truth.

ViaCrucis said:
The KJV doesn't mistranslate anything here, "firmament" is an acceptable way to refer to the firm, solid dome which ancient people believed existed. And no, the earth is not flat.

I didn't say "firmament" was mistranslated, I said "Heaven" seemed to have been mistranslated in the 8th verse.

"And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

It would appear the "firmament" whether it is the sky or the dome or whatever it is one may interpret that word as is the actual location of "Heaven" as in the Heaven that is the dwelling place of angels and God, if you take this translation literally.

ViaCrucis said:
There is no firmament, it doesn't exist and has never existed, it was an idea held by people who didn't know any better. That isn't a flaw in the Bible, since that's not the point of the Bible. The Bible records things in the language and culture of the people who wrote it; and not all the ideas of those ancient people are necessarily true. But, again, the point of the Bible isn't to tell us what the earth looks like, but to point us to Jesus Christ and the salvation we have in Him.

We already translated firmament. It means sky.

Again the bible is God's revealed truth to man. If it was all about Jesus, then what purpose did it serve to the people before Jesus? Was it an outdated thing to them?

Hiscosmicgoldfish3 · Jun 15, 2018

I think the KJV has been altered, by the Mandela Effect - people remember it as being - 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth'. The English Standard still retains 'heavens'.

ViaCrucis · Jun 15, 2018

Valetic said:
I'm not talking about what ancient Hebrews believed the earth was like, I'm talking about what the bible says.

The texts which make up the Old Testament were written by those ancient Hebrew people, as such the texts which make up the Old Testament reflect the ideas and views of those who wrote them.

I believe the bible is God's revealed truth to mankind. If any part of it were untrue then it would not be there. Simple. But this is why we do in depth studies. To increase our knowledge of the truth.

The Bible isn't God's revealed truth. The Bible contains God's revealed truth, but the Bible isn't God's revelation. Jesus Christ is God's revelation, as Jesus Christ is Himself the very Word of God (John 1:1, 14). The Bible is a collection of holy texts, received by the Church, which points to where God has revealed Himself throughout history, such as His revelation to Abraham, to Moses, and all the ancient prophets. But most importantly the Bible points to God's chief revelation of Himself: the Lord Jesus.

Don't confuse the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself.

I didn't say "firmament" was mistranslated, I said "Heaven" seemed to have been mistranslated in the 8th verse.

"And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

Two words are used there in the Hebrew, the first is raqya ("firmament") and the second is shamayim, ("heavens"). Shamayim means "heavens" or "sky/skies".

It would appear the "firmament" whether it is the sky or the dome or whatever it is one may interpret that word as is the actual location of "Heaven" as in the Heaven that is the dwelling place of angels and God, if you take this translation literally.

This gets complicated, because it's important to keep in mind how ancient people thought and spoke. When they spoke of "the heavens" they referred to everything we observe when we look up. It's where the birds fly, it's where the sun, moon, and stars are. And since when we look up, all that stuff is way up there. So to conceive of God as bigger, and higher than all that stuff meant to speak in ways such as to speak of God as dwelling in the highest heavens, or as being even greater than the highest heavens. Solomon says, "The heavens, not even the highest heavens, can contain You, how much less this house which I have built." Here Solomon recognizes that God is more vast than even the greatest and most fathomable, and observable heights conceivable, so how can this vast and unfathomable One dwell in such a meager building constructed by human hands. The Hebrew here is literally "the heavens of heavens", this kind of way of speaking is a common Hebraism, we see it for example in other places "holy of holies", "king of kings", "lord of lords", etc. It means the most absolute chief, or highest, or greatest of a thing. So holy of holies means the most holy, the utmost holy, the greatest holy. And that's what it means here to say "heavens of heavens", it means the greatest, chief, highest, most sublime utmost up-there. God is even bigger than that. God is even beyond that.

So the meaning of calling the firmament "heavens" isn't about where God is, it's about describing the sky-dome as the thing above the earth.

We already translated firmament. It means sky.

Again the bible is God's revealed truth to man. If it was all about Jesus, then what purpose did it serve to the people before Jesus? Was it an outdated thing to them?

Jesus Himself tells us the purpose of Scripture, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which bear witness to Me." The point of Scripture is Jesus. That's why the Law was given to Moses, it is why the Prophets spoke, it is why God made a covenant with Abraham, and Israel, and David.

Jesus is the whole point. Without Jesus the Bible is just interesting religious literature.

-CryptoLutheran

The firmament and the KJV.

Valetic

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