The Fatima Prophesies...

[Xpycoctomos]

I usually consider myself quite diplomatic when it comes to VC/EO relations. I think that often our differences are blown out of proportion and, while I will agree with the Orthodox point of view on such and such an issue, I don't see most of our disagreements as reason for division. I also, like many Orthodox, have no problem learning from and respecting western apparitions.

But one thing that does bother me are the Fatima prophesies. The second one goes as follows:

When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays [of each month]. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.

Now, some moderate Catholics might say that since this happened during the communist years, the circumstances were much different and now, that many are going back to the Orthodox Church, this is being fulfilled. But I have a feeling this is not the general view of the Catholic Church regarding the prophesy. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this probably refer to bringing Russia under the Pope? If this is true, wouldn't it be not only the God-given right but also the duty of the Vatican to proselytize Orthodox Christians to the Vatican as they have been accused of? But the Vatican vehemently denies this.

... And there will be peace...

Oddly enough this perhaps bothers me more than anything else. It is very possible I don't understand what is meant by "peace." I suppose I'm taking it to mean worldly peace. Is this right or not? If so, it bothers me because I don't feel that Christianity is about bringing peace to the Earth necessarily. This is not the purpose of our Faith, but rather the salvation of souls. The Biblical prophesies talk about anything BUT peace towards the end. Then again, I am no end-times specialist and it may be that I am misuderstanding what was meant by this.

One other thing, I have met several serious Catholics who have told me that a Catholic does not have to accept the prophesies of Fatima (and one of these friend's of mine do not). Is this true? I point this out because even if there do appear to be discepancies to my feeble mind, it in no way undermines the Catholic Church and her validity in my mind.

I'm looking forward to your responses and am not looking to debate. If any follow-up questions looks more like a rebuttle than honest inquiry, forgive me and feel free to delete it.

God bless,

John

 

[Carrye]

John,

Your questions are always most welcome here.

I'm not sure that I'm going to be much help, but I can maybe start the discussion. Catholics are not bound to accept private revelations, of which Fatima is one. However even among private revelations, there are some which are approved by the Vatican, and others which have not been. This is not to say that they're not valid, but that they either fail to meet the sort of burden of proof, if we can call it that, that the Vatican requires, or that they're continually controversial. But either way, as an individual Catholic, I am free to accept or not private revelation.

As far as what the prophecy means, that's something I try not to touch with a ten foot pole. I'm hesitant to interpret prophecies to my own liking. I am always reminded of the Jews, and of how they expected the Messiah to come in a particular way. When he didn't fulfill all of their preconceived notions, they didn't recognize him. So maybe it's just me, but I try to remove myself from things like this. I pray for the Lord's will, and trust in His Divine Plan.

How was that for an abstract answer?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

How was that for an abstract answer?

It was good, thank you

I'm still interested in hearing others' POVs

 

[InnerPhyre]

The Catholic Church accepts that the Theotokos has appeared and continues to appear to devout Orthodox Christians. The Pope recognizes your church as valid. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that she was speaking of greater conversion to Orthodoxy. It's not for me to say though. I wasn't there

 

[JJM]

Personally I think that she was referring to Bringing the Orthodox of that country under the Pope again. As for peace I'd say that it could be along the lines of never having the cold War or maybe a peace between the two churches. But I truly don't have any credentials as a prophecy interpreter if there is such a thing.

 

[Benedicta00]

As far as I know Catholics were in there evangelizing after Russia fell, not trying to lead EO away but trying to lead all the oppressed to Christ and it was the government who made Orthodoxy the official Church to follow, that Roman Catholicism was not encouraged. So I would say at that time this was an obstacle to peace and unity that Mary was asking for. I have no idea what is going on over there now.

The basic message of Fatima was war is a punishment for sin and we must not offend God anymore, he is already much to offended. Well, Russia was converted but it was not until we suffered a greater war and it came after Russia had spread her error to other countries which led to Vietnam. Even though communism is no longer the thing we worry about now, this new invisible enemy of terrorism is. It’s still all the same message. Stop offending God who is already way offended and turn back to God and we will have a true genuine peace. War is a punishment for sin.

 

[Axion]

But one thing that does bother me are the Fatima prophesies. The second one goes as follows:

When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays [of each month]. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.


Now, some moderate Catholics might say that since this happened during the communist years, the circumstances were much different and now, that many are going back to the Orthodox Church, this is being fulfilled. But I have a feeling this is not the general view of the Catholic Church regarding the prophesy. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this probably refer to bringing Russia under the Pope? If this is true, wouldn't it be not only the God-given right but also the duty of the Vatican to proselytize Orthodox Christians to the Vatican as they have been accused of? But the Vatican vehemently denies this.

I would think most Catholics interpret the "errors" spread by Russia as being Atheistic Communism, which took power in Russia in 1917 and began a major persecution of the Church in Russia and later elsewhere. It is the anti-Christian atheism which is seen as the main opposing force, to be converted. Of course many Catholic areas including Lithuania, Poland and catholic parts of Ukraine, suffered under Communism up to 1945, and more after. The Catholic Church sees the Orthodox churches as sister churches. So other than in areas where the Catholic Church was forcibly united into the Orthodox Church, as in Ukraine, systematic "prosyletation" of Orthodox Christians is by no means seen as a "duty".

... And there will be peace...

Oddly enough this perhaps bothers me more than anything else. It is very possible I don't understand what is meant by "peace." I suppose I'm taking it to mean worldly peace. Is this right or not? If so, it bothers me because I don't feel that Christianity is about bringing peace to the Earth necessarily.

This is not the purpose of our Faith, but rather the salvation of souls. The Biblical prophesies talk about anything BUT peace towards the end. Then again, I am no end-times specialist and it may be that I am misuderstanding what was meant by this.

Peace is generally taken to refer to earthly peace, as opposed to major war, particularly nuclear war, which was a constant threat until the sudden dissolution of the Communist bloc in 1989. The talk of nations being annihilated seemed to confirm that such a disaster might befall humanity.

The full passage stated:
‘To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved.

Our Lady is thus not speaking of a permanent, eternal peace, but of a period of peace being granted the world, instead of the chastisement of a devastating war.

Protestant premillennial end-times theory tends to see all the chastisements in the Book of Revelation as being yet to come, in a lengthy period of growing and increasing disaster in the run-up to the return of Christ, and a literal thousand-year earthly millenium.

However Catholic thought is based more on amillennialism which states that the current age of the Church is the Spiritual Millennium, and that therefore many of the tribulations and disasters of Revelation have already occurred. There yet remain trials, and the time of great tribulation immediately preceding Jesus's return, but as Matthew 24 says, this terrible time will be made short for the sake of believers.

Therefore the Catholic view of the run-up to end-times is not so pessimistic as the evangelical protestant view.

 

[Irenaeus]

JamesH- (formerly known)

Private Catholic Prophecy tends to reconcile the message of Fatima with those of other authenticated private revelations. I believe it was Sr. Lucia who was told that it the consecration of Russia came far too late for the period of peace that was to come.

However, many Catholic mystics with the gift of prophecy have said that whether by chastisement or conversion, the Age of Mary draws close, where there will be great peace, great reunification of the Church, and a time of great holiness. This age will last until the Antichrist comes, so it is said.

Time setting, however, is not left to us.

 

[Lifesaver]

Xprycoctomos, it is indeed a matter of great sorrow for Our Mother that there exist schisms in the Church, and that not all churches are in true unity, as they should be, but still separated because of originally political conflicts.
And we know that this unity can only take place under the authority of St. Peter, who holds the keys.

Private Catholic Prophecy tends to reconcile the message of Fatima with those of other authenticated private revelations. I believe it was Sr. Lucia who was told that it the consecration of Russia came far too late for the period of peace that was to come.

From what I have read, the consecration of Russia has never come to pass in the way it was asked for by the Virgin Mary.

Does anyone have information on this?