There is only one king, reigning on one throne, over one kingdom. In His Davidic kingship, He rules the Israel of God - the redeemed of God; in His divine kingship, He rules all creation. These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man. This does not mean there are 2 kings, 2 kingdoms or 2 thrones. No. There are two aspects to Christ's kingship - human and divine.
Quit giving me the run around and answer my questions directly.
Most a millennialist believe Christ skips to the New Heaven and New Earth.
If he skips the millennial kingdom what kingdom is he giving back to the father? And is that kingdom spiritual or physical?Do you believe that God will tabernacle with men spiritually or physically?
Simple questions so give simple answers. Jerry Kelso
He is handing up his spiritual kingdom to His Father when He comes. As it says in 1 Corinthians 15, then comes the end. It is the end of the world. It is then that the new heavens and new earth are introduced.
There is no need, or biblical requirement for there God to raise up a geopolitical racist old-covenant kingdom. You have yet to show me any NT Scripture that would confirm that. I have shown you multiple scriptures that prove that God's kingdom today is spiritual.
sovereigngrace,
1. Is the new Heaven and new earth spiritual or physical?
Does God tabernacle with men spiritual or physical? Jerry Kelso
The new heaven and new earth will both be physical and spiritual. The elect and creation will be physically glorified when He physically comes to tabernacle with man forever in a perfect environment.
This is nothing short of rebellion against the authority of the word of God. The fact that a promise was not repeated in the part of the Bible you want to see it in would be a trivial fact, even if t were correct. For if God made a promise, He bound Himself to keep that promise.
This is nothing short of rebellion against the authority of the word of God. The fact that a promise was not repeated in the part of the Bible you want to see it in would be a trivial fact, even if t were correct. For if God made a promise, He bound Himself to keep that promise.
sovereigngrace,
1. Like a good a millennialist.
2. When you spiritualized the scripture you can’t be consistent.
You spiritualize the 1000 year reign. So who are we going to rule and reign over?
Also, Satan is not cast into the lake of fire until 1000 years after Armageddon where the beast and false prophet have been for 1000 years.
2. There is no scripture that say God will make a full end to Israel.
It does say he will chastise them and he will make the land of Judah desolate but not a full end. His promises are eternal and he cannot lie.
Your allegorical interpretation fails, Your one sidedness fails, and Your inconsistency fails.
You know a lot of scripture but your context is out of context, out of control and fails. Jerry Kelso
(continued from post #884)
But now we need to go back and re-consider the last of these four passages we have noticed.
“25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)
For this passage continues as follows:
“26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.’ 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:26-29)
The context of this entire passage, Romans 11:25-29, existing as it does in immediate connection with verse 25, highlights its unified message. The judicial “blindness” inflicted upon Israel is only temporary, “and so all Israel will be saved.” “For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” Between these statements we read that even though “they are enemies for your sakes,” they yet remain “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” That is, this passage is not speaking of that portion of Israel that has come to faith in Crist, but of that portion of that ancient and rebellious nation that have rejected the message of the gospel. This is the context of both the statement that “all Israel will be saved” and the statement that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” This message is stated so clearly that nothing but prejudice can keep a person from understanding it.
This is also stated in Romans 9, where we read:
“25 As He says also in Hosea: ‘I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.’ ‘26 And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, “You are not My people,” There they shall be called sons of the living God.’ ” (Romans 9:25-26)
In the very place “where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.” That is the context given by the Holy Spirit himself, speaking through the Apostle Paul, for the words “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
Now we are not told exactly where Hosea was standing when God told him, “Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.” (Hosea 1:9) But as he was a prophet of Judah, this would have been said somewhere in Judea, the country now called Israel. So here, in Romans 9:25, which is a quotation from Hosea 1:10, the Holy Spirit clearly said that there was a day coming when, within the physical borders of the modern nation of Israel, the people of Israel “shall be called sons of the living God.”
But this brings us back to the beginnings of this ninth chapter of Romans, where we read:
“1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.” (Romans 9:1-5)
We noticed earlier that this passage clearly defines the people under discussion as Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.” Thus, there can be zero question that the people group under discussion is the individuals that made up the fleshly nation of Israel. There is absolutely no way this can be rationally “spiritualized” to mean “the church.” Yet this same people group remains the subject throughout these entire three chapters, for we read of them again in chapter eleven, that, “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.” (Romans 11:28)
So this entire three chapter section (Romans 9-11) is about the fleshly nation of Israel, who were “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” That is, the people under discussion had not accepted the gospel, and were on their way to a lost eternity. But, even though tthey were “enemies,” yet they were still “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” And then comes a stunning declaration, which is the death forever for the claim that god has permanently rejected Israel. “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)
We need to notice that the context of this declaration that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” is the fact that Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites,” are “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” Yet they “are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”
We are not only explicitly told of the temporary nature of Israel’s rejection, we are also told the reason for this. And again, the words are too plain to misunderstand, unless they are approached by a prejudiced mind. God did not reject Israel in condemnation, but to provoke them to jealousy. This is not a tactic of someone who has stopped loving someone and turned to another. It is a tactic of someone who is still in love, and who is working to win back the love of whoever had spurned their love. So we read:
“19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: ‘I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.’ ” (Romans 10:19)
And again we read:
“11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” (Romans 11:11-15)
So God has not only clearly told us that the reason for Israel’s rejection is only to woo them back to himself. He has just as clearly told us that when he has accomplished that purpose, the result of Israel’s restoration will not mean a loss of blessing to the gentiles, but rather, as it were, a very revival of “life from the dead.”
And we need to notice that this eventual restoration of Israel is not stated here as a new revelation, but rather referred to as a well established fact. The Holy Spirit does not say, “if they are revived, it will be life from the dead,” but “what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.” That is, the Christian’s prior knowledge of this acceptance is simply assumed in this scripture.
And why would this knowledge of Israel’s eventual acceptance be simply assumed here? Because it had already been stated, and explicitly stated, in too many places to count.
A great many of these explicit statements that God will indeed accomplish this purpose of winning back their hearts are in the Old Testament. So they are outside of the subject matter of this article. But concerning these very many Old Testament statements about this, we need to notice what Jesus said concerning the rich man and Lazarus:
“29Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” (Luke 16:29-31)
So the scriptures warn us that we are responsible to heed the words of “Moses and the prophets.” And in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit clearly refers to these Old Testament prophecies, saying, “19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)
This future period is here called two things. It is first called “times of refreshing” and then called “the times of restoration of all things.” The Greek word here translated “of refreshing” is “anapsuxeos,” (word number 403 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which properly means a “recovery of breath,” and thus figuratively means “revival.” And the Greek word translated “of restoration” is “apokatastaseos,” (word number 605 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “reconstitution.” What we need to realize from this, is that neither of these words means, or even implies, a time of judgment. Both of these words mean a restoration, not a time of destruction. That is, the Holy Spirit, here quoting Peter through Luke, is specifically saying that there is a time coming when all things will be restored, and then explicitly says that this is the time of “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.”
So here we have a NEW TESTAMENT statement, made after the new covenant was ALREADY in force, that the things “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” are still in the future, and will still happen. That is, these MANY promises still apply. These are the promises which, as we previously saw in Romans 9:3-4, still “pertain” to Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.”
And finally, there is one more New Testament scripture that mentions this future restoration of Israel.
“27Then Peter answered and said to Him, ‘See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?’ 28So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’ ” (Matthew 19:27-28)
The Greek word here translated “regeneration” is “paliggenesia.” (word number 3824 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) In the Greek this is a compound word made by connecting the Greek word “palin,” (word number 3825 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “once more,” and the Greek word “genesis,” (word number1078 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “nativity,” or “birth.” So once again, this word clearly speaks of a time of restoration, not a time of destruction. But in this time the twelve Apostles “will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Thus we clearly read, in the New Testament, of a future rebirth, in which the twelve apostles will judge “the twelve tribes of Israel.” Not just Judah, but all twelve tribes, just as repeatedly promised in the Old Testament.
So in conclusion, there is simply no rational escape from the fact that, not just the Old Testament, but also the New Testament, clearly and repeatedly states that there is a time coming in the future, in which the ancient nation of Israel will be restored.
We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.
Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”
Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”
Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”
This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.
Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”
As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.
God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,
John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”
1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”
sovereigngrace,
1. You didn’t answer my questions and you continue to be one sided and put the spiritual application into the physical application. You think we are reigning today.
2nd Timothy 2:12 If we suffer we shall reign. The suffering is present, the reigning is future.
I have no quarrel about the throne room message for Christ is our intercessor who’s ever interceding.
We are to have faith in him for without faith it is impossible to please him.
We carry it out by obedience to God’s authority.
Now will you please answer the previous questions instead of rabbit trails that amount to nothing?
Jerry Kelso
This is a reply to both of your posts.
Jerusalem below
The Pretrib obsession with national Israel and physical Jerusalem is unbiblical.
You are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures as a very lame excuse the deny the EXPLICIT STATEMENTS of a far larger number of scriptures. This is nothing but rebellion against the express word of God.
Ezekiel 36:1-10 very explicitly says that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit "the mountains of Israel," With "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken"
Ezekiel 47:13-20 goes so far as to precisely define the borders of the n=land in that day.
Isaiah 4:3 says "it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem."
And Jeremiah 31:34 says of that day that, "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
And Jeremiah 31:37 says, "Thus says the LORD: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD."
|These are just a few of an host of scriptures that explicitly state the future restoration of Israel, in clear, lain, language.
In the other thread, I already conclusively proved that your last post is a flat out lie.Some supporting Scripture is better than none. Pretrib has nothing to support its elaborate theory. You have admitted that.
This above all happened to welcome the Messiah. Israel was brought back to the land.
In the other thread, I already conclusively proved that your last statement is a flat out lie.
no scriptire explicitly states this succession.
No scripture puts these two events together in a single passage.
Not so! When I asked you repeatedly: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ? You admitted
I then replied:
"Ok, then. I will make it easier for you. Let me (reluctantly) take one of the crucial aspects of Pretrib out ("Christ's 3rd coming to the earth"), even though it is a key element of the Pretribulation paradigm. I will also take the word “immediately” out so that you have no excuse.
Please give us a rapture passage that shows a literal seven-year tribulation following it?"
You then admitted what many of us former Pretribbers have been arguing for years:
I then asked: "Do you want me to reduce this question to simply a rapture of the Church??? Then we can all agree with that.
Your claim that, for a doctrine to be true, its entirety must be taught in a single scripture, is 100% pure nonsense. I gave you so much scriptural proof that it would not all fit into a single post. You reacted to this emotionally without even bothering to read it. For your answers clerarly demonstrated that you had no idea of even what I had said.
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