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It's less about wanting an answer and more making you and your ilk realise that you're not really arguing from a logical perspective, either when you argue for creation or ague against evolution. You never do, you especially.
The specific request in the post above was reasonable and relevant, so, I will at least make a good-faith effort to address it:Earth, you have an OP that's about a foot and a half of text.
You end it with this statement:
For debate: Any arguments theists could give to justify the acceptance of unfalsifiable religious claims about divine creation in the absence of a solution to the universal problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination.
Do you mind repeating that in words that are easy to understand?
The specific request in the post above was reasonable and relevant, so, I will at least make a good-faith effort to address it:
Consider, for example, the theistic claim that a god answers prayer. When you ask most theists if an unanswered prayer would function to falsify the claim, they almost always and consistently argue that such an outcome would not disprove their claim. So, what reasonably obtainable evidence would those theists expect to find if their claim about a god answering prayer is false? There is not answer to the question because the claim is unfalsifiable.
Well, if the theist has no way to ever discover if their claim about a god answering prayer is false, what is the justification for believing it is true?
To understand why unfalsifiable claims are problematic, let's return to the "all swans are white" claim to simplify the explanation. Prior to the discovery of a black swan, European naturalists had only ever observed the existence of white swans. So, the evidence for the "all swans are white claim" was their prior observations of wild swans in Europe that were always white in color. Therefore, all the available evidence seemed to confirm the "all swans are white" claim. Of course, given the benefit of our hindsight, it is relatively easy for us to understand where the universal problem of confirmation bias existed in their argument for the "all swans are white" claim. However, from the limited perspective of the European naturalists who weren't aware of a black swan existing in Australia at the time, they thought it was perfectly reasonable for them to believe that all swans were white.
Furthermore, the European naturalists felt it was reasonable for them to inductively infer from all of their previous observations of white swans that the next swan someone observed in the wild would also necessarily be white. Again, given the benefit of our hindsight, it is easy for us to understand where the logical fallacy exists in their inductive inference at the time. Obviously, if the next observation of a swan happened to occur in Australia, it would not have been white but black in color. That outcome demonstrates the universal problem of induction.
Last but not least, the universal problems of confirmation bias and induction demonstrate how evidence for a claim will always underdetermine what should be believed about it. Despite the fact that all the available evidence seemed to confirm the "all swans are white" claim and to expect the next swan to be white as well, the idea was false nonetheless. So, the supporting evidence on its own was never sufficient to justify the belief in the corresponding claim. What eventually resolved these problems for the European naturalists was the fact that the claim turned-out to be falsifiable by the observation of a black swan in Australia. Had it not been falsifiable, what logical justication could the European naturalists have provided for accepting the "all swans are white" claim if they could never observe every swan in existence on the planet at the time?
Arguments for unfalsifiable theistic claims are fallacious for the same reasons unless you or any other theist can provide a logical justification for accepting them in the absence of a solution to the universal problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination. I hope this explanation was sufficiently simplistic to provide some clarity.
Arguments for unfalsifiable theistic claims are fallacious for the same reasons unless you or any other theist can provide a logical justification for accepting them in the absence of a solution to the universal problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination. I hope this explanation was sufficiently simplistic to provide some clarity.
web: Nevertheless, the falsifiability criterion remains a widely accepted principle for evaluating the scientific status of theories.
In other words, it is falseifiable and utterly meaningless without value except to further trick people with money as the motive.
Opinion noted. Also, an equivocation fallacy occurs when a word with multiple meanings is deceptively used in an argument. You'll find no such verbal deception in my explanation. Nevertheless, I wasn't comparing the doxastic nature of Christian prayer to the Theory of Evolution in the way you implied. The claim that a god answers prayer was used to demonstrate the concept of unfalsifiability. Presumably, you will agree that such a claim is unfalsifiable. If the example is throwing you off, then replace it with any other unfalsifiable claim you like.I wouldn't compare the doxastic nature of Christian prayer to the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. If anything, I'd contrast their respective epistemic domains being that prayer resides within the conceptual structures of Christian Theology and the other within the Nature (and Philosophy) of Science. We shouldn't expect to apply the same metrics or tests, or modes of interpretation, in both domains and get results or indications of falsification.
To think we can is a gross equivocation.
Opinion noted.Thank you for the clarification.
All I can say, BG, is that you're setting your standards too high.
To expect God to provide you (or anyone) personal justification for His claims is not how He operates in this dispensation.
Sure, He honored Gideon's request to have the dew fall on a fleece one day, and on the ground but not on the fleece another day.
But that was a different time and place, under different circumstances.
I feel confident that if God were to show up in Person and grant you (or anyone) a personal interview, complete with shows of miracles and whatever else, it wouldn't prove to you He is God.
You could just say He's an alien from space or something.
To use your white swan example, I'm sure you're under the impression that no one -- and I mean no one -- has ever come back from the grave after being dead for three days.
Yet that is exactly what Jesus did, and it was confirmed through eyewitness testimony of more than five hundred people who lived at the time.
It was settled back then.
A done deal.
Even Jesus' enemies didn't contest it.
So, yes, I think you're setting your standards a bit too high when it comes to the God of the universe.
And I pray you take this as an honest plea to reconsider some things.
Opinion noted. Also, an equivocation fallacy occurs when a word with multiple meanings is deceptively used in an argument. You'll find no such verbal deception in my explanation. Nevertheless, I wasn't comparing the doxastic nature of Christian prayer to the Theory of Evolution in the way you implied. The claim that a god answers prayer was used to demonstrate the concept of unfalsifiability. Presumably, you will agree that such a claim is unfalsifiable. If the example is throwing you off, then replace it with any other unfalsifiable claim you like.
Which is the equivalent of saying in science we deal with facts, in religion we deal with fancy, or more tactfully with faith. Good of you to acknowledge that.
Thanks for almost all of your posts that I have on purpose or in passing read.
Realizing that on this forum it is not possible to prevent falsehoods , as they are encouraged to post.
Friendly Reminder: This debate thread is intended for the intellectually honest evaluation of arguments to determine where any logical fallacies may exist, not for proselytizing non-negotiable personal perspectives. If you find a reasoning error in someone's posted argument, you are welcome engage accordingly. Otherwise, please respect the terms of this thread or find another thread more suited to your needs. Thank you.Yes, for those who are seeking truth, it is good to have at least an ounce (a few posts) of truth and hope that God gives the increase for those few who seek truth.
A science with nothing left to learn is dead. Just engineering after that. Engineering is critical, of course. But it's not science.It would basically mean the end of that discipline and inquiry or study of it. Why learn something new about a subject if you already know it all?
No offense, but engineering is science and engineers discover new scientific things all of the time. The difference is the intent. Engineers discover things while solving practical problems. Scientist who are not engineers discover things out of curiosity of new information. I know what you mean, but I'm a little sensitive to "it's not science."A science with nothing left to learn is dead. Just engineering after that. Engineering is critical, of course. But it's not science.
No offense, but engineering is science and engineers discover new scientific things all of the time. The difference is the intent. Engineers discover things while solving practical problems.
Proving a negative proposition—that something doesn't exist—is impossible.Many fundamentalist theists want to reject the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection because they are not convinced by the available evidence to believe it has been proven true (Spoiler Alert: Nothing is ever proven absolutely true in science). These theists tend to reference skeptical counter-arguments from apologists and/or so-called "experts" who operate under the notion that divine creation should be the default position until the evidence they are demanding for the Theory of Evolution is provided as proof. The problem with demanding proof for the truth of Evolution is that science does not function to prove any of its hypotheses are absolutely true, and there are very good reasons for this.
To begin with, science requires its hypotheses to be falsifiable. The hypothesis that claims species evolve through a process of natural selection is, indeed, potentially falsifiable. Every time a qualified and reputable scientist conducts an experiment in a relevant field, there is an opportunity for the results to disprove the Theory of Evolution. In fact, the exact purpose of every scientific experiment is to try and disprove the corresponding hypothesis. So, what justification do scientists have for not attempting to prove their hypotheses are true? Isn't the primary purpose of evidence collection to prove a claim is true? No, such a perspective on the role of evidence would consistently leave scientists and their conclusions susceptible to Confirmation Bias. Accordingly, the Falsifiability criterion has been instituted as a mitigation for the possible influence of confirmation bias.
To understand how the falsifiability criterion secures the unmatched credablity and reliability of all currently accepted scientific theories, it is necessary to explore a little bit of philosophy. Let's begin with the Problem of Induction. Inductive reasoning is demonstrably unreliable when evaluating a claim because the resulting conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the supporting evidence. An example of this fact is the inductive argument for the claim that all swans are white. At one point in history, swans had only ever been observed to be white in color. Therefore, it seemed reasonable to inductively infer from the evidence available at the time that all existing swans must be white. But how could the truth of this claim be verified to rule-out the possibility of confirmation bias?
To verify the claim's truth, every individual swan in existence would have to be observed to determine if all are white in color. Obviously, this evidence is not reasonably obtainable. Consequently, the possibility for a different colored swan existing somewhere unobserved could not be reliably ruled-out. So, the truth of the claim that all swans are white turned out to be Underdetermined by the available evidence. Therefore, the possibility of confirmation bias could not be ruled-out. However, it is important to note that a single observation of a different colored swan would function to reasonably falsify the claim.
As it happened, someone did eventually observe a black swan in Australia. This discovery reasonably demonstrated that the claim, "all swans are white," was a product of confirmation bias after all. So, while it wasn't possible to observe every individual swan in existence at the time to determine the claim's truth value, it was possible to reasonably falsify it. It logically followed from this outcome that falsifiability was a more reliable and justifiable criterion for scientific claims than the verifiability of their truth given the problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination.
The fact of the matter is that these problems are not unique to science but apply universally. Science may have uniquely solved these problems by implementing the falsifiability criterion for its hypotheses, but nothing seems to logically prohibit this solution from functioning in non-scientific contexts as well. If theists want to reject the solution provided by the falsifiability criterion, then they must provide a justifiable alternate solution to the universal problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination that equally apply to their religious claims about divine creation. Otherwise, despite the quantity and quality of the supporting evidence theists might have for their unfalsifiable creation claims, the unresolved problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination will provide a reasonable justification to dismiss their corresponding apologetic arguments as logically fallacious.
Meanwhile, the falsifiable Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection continues to survive all tests designed to try and disprove it. Accordingly, it is widely accepted as the most reasonable explanation. Please note that the acceptance of this scientific claim does not necessarily correspond to any assertions about it being absolutely true. Sure, many science communicators may colloquially refer to Evolution and other scientific claims as being "proven true," but such phrasing should be understood to mean that the theory is falsifiable yet has never been disconfirmed by any quanity or quality of evidence discovered to date. Therefore, all arguments rejecting the Theory of Evolution on the grounds that the available evidence is insufficient to prove it is true are fallacious and should be immediately dismissed.
At the same time, any suggestion that some quantity or quality of newly discovered evidence will function to falsify the Theory of Evolution should be carefully examined and considered. However, anyone defending the Theory of Evolution must be mindful to identify and expose where intellectual dishonesty exists in the objections they encounter. In all previous circumstances where such invalid objections have been made by duplicitous individuals, the proposed disconfirming evidence turned-out to be either manipulated or misrepresented.
For debate: Any arguments theists could give to justify the acceptance of unfalsifiable religious claims about divine creation in the absence of a solution to the universal problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination.
Proving evolution is a matter of observation. It's observed going on everywhere. Disproving it is like proving gravity doesn't exist. Common descent of all living things on Earth is not part of evolutionary theory. Darwin pointed out that the evidence at the time was consistent with any number of original living things. Genetics has has made it unreasonable to deny common descent, but has not proven it to the level of logical certainty.Proving a negative proposition—that something doesn't exist—is impossible.
Genetics has has made it unreasonable to deny common descent, but has not proven it to the level of logical certainty.
Common descent is a central concept in evolutionary biology proposing that all life on Earth shares a common genetic heritage, with different species evolving from a single ancestral organism over millions of years.I don't deny common descent.
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