Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The Pastoral Malpractice of Preaching Universalism – Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy
"In the end, even if universalism might be true (which I believe it is not), it is still wrong to preach it. Why? If universalism is true, yet the preaching is against it, then no harm is ultimately done, even if preaching against it may be needlessly painful for some in this life. Everyone will still be saved.
But if universalism is not true, yet one preaches in favor of it, then one has just opened the gateway to Hell even wider.
Let’s not do that. Let’s continue to preach: Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand."
– Dr. Andrew Stephen Damick
.
Do you not know that The Unrighteous WILL NOT Inherit The Kingdom Of God ? Do Not Be Deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
.
XYZ said:Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?
It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU:
There's no endless tortures for anyone there or anywhere else in the Scriptures, properly translated without an Endless Tormenter bias. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:
Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."
Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.
Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.
Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:
Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.
The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).
For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @
What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Right, but that doesn't change the fact that the unrighteous Will Not Inherit the Kingdom of God.
.
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;
but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, It Will Not Be Forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
• Matthew 12:32
.
Universalism is for people who don't want to repent from their sins or take responsibility and be held accountable for their actions.
And they don't want anyone else to either.
.
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:22-40, NKJV)
But there is at least one age beyond those two ages when they can be forgiven & saved:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Eph.2:7)
Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit NEVER Has Forgiveness, but is subject To Eternal Condemnation"--
• Mark 3:29
.
XYZ said:Mark says it won’t be forgiven in this world or the next.
XYZ said:So death from this world obviously doesn’t pay for this sin if it is not forgiven in the next world.
More literal translations say:
28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming,
29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-"
30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (Mark 3, CLV)
Young's Literal Translation
29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'
29 But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)
29 who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment. Mark 3 And he entered again into the synagogue; and was there man having been withered having the hand,
The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".
Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):
"Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit
Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
Definition of REMIT
Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
"An example of remit is to pardon someone..."
So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.
Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.
Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".
Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:
Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a
mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.
As my previous post showed, certain blasphemers in the Scriptures suffered death, either by stoning, or by other means. Whether or not they could ever be "forgiven" by God is not stated. But they were not to be "pardoned" or "let go" or "released" from the consequences or penalty which was required, e.g. being stoned to death.
We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.
"When Jesus speaks of pardoning or forgiving a sin, he has in mind something utterly different from an attitude of forgiveness, which in God never ceases; he has in mind instead a release from some obligation, or a canceling of some debt, or a setting aside of some prescribed punishment. It is very close to our idea of forgiving a debt or pardoning a criminal. If a debt is unforgiven, then it must be paid; and once it is paid, it no longer exists. Similarly, if a criminal is unpardoned, then the criminal must serve his or her sentence; and once the sentence is served, there is no longer any need for a pardon. An unforgivable or unpardonable sin, therefore, need not be an uncorrectable sin at all; it is simply one that God cannot deal with adequately in the absence of an appropriate punishment."
"...when Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as we noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment."
Tom Talbott
Just what does it mean to say that God will never forgive or pardon a given sin
For further reading on this topic:
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
Hi there Lily: The words of the Christ are so powerful. He declares He will draw all mankind unto Himself. He refuses to lose one morself of fish and bread that it might not be apollumi. His glorious Name is Iesous for a reason. He IS Saviour.
Not all see Him yet. In fact a small miniscule portion ot the broken wrecks of Adam1 have seen Him at all, nor heard those life changing words....."Follow Me & I will make.."
"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME SHALL COME TO ME; * * AND THIS IS THE FATHER'S WILL * * THAT OF ALL WHICH HE HAS GIVEN ME * * I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING." (John 6:37)
God the Father, our Abba, has given to Christ all things, not some things, but all things; here we have the promise of Jesus Christ, that all that has been given to Him shall come to Him, and that nothing shall be lost (John 6:12)
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28, NKJV)
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
(Luke 21:27-28, NKJV)
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
(John 5:28-30, NKJV)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:16-18, NKJV)
The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
(John 3:35-36, NKJV)
The judgements of God our Father are real. No fallen creature can avoid Him (thank God). The entire judgements of Abba are for one purpose, and one purpose ONLY, to set right what is wrong. It is known as at-one-ment or rectitude, & yes restitution.
For the elect first fruits this process begins in the present ongoing NOW, or the progressive present tense. The process is intense, leading to new creatures after His image, nature & character.
For the lost and broken wrecks of sin (the vast majority), this meeting of dust & Divinity must & will happen. This happening is in the dispensation of the fulness of times declared by St. Paul in Eph. 1.
It is good to see you again Lily.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?