Is a conservative view of the fall necessary for a proper understanding of what Jesus' death on the cross accomplished?
Vinnie
Vinnie
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The Fall
- Thread starter ilgwamh
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Yes. A liberal, or figurative view would render the reality of salvation as a simple story, or just an illusion.
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Thanks for your response.
How so? I do understand that some doctrine in the NT presupposes the idea of the fall.
Do you take the account literally?
Can a "literal" view of the fall view the details as non-historical? What if it was intended as narrative aimed at teaching theological truths. Does taking it literally mean that the details must be literally true? I don't think so. There are differnt types of literary genre.
What exactly did the fall do?
Vinnie
How so? I do understand that some doctrine in the NT presupposes the idea of the fall.
Do you take the account literally?
Can a "literal" view of the fall view the details as non-historical? What if it was intended as narrative aimed at teaching theological truths. Does taking it literally mean that the details must be literally true? I don't think so. There are differnt types of literary genre.
What exactly did the fall do?
Vinnie
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Without the reality of a specific fall, sin would have to have been inherent in our species' creation and design. I disagree with this conclusion because obviously for God to create a sinful and bad creation would be contrary to his nature as a God who declared that all of Creation was "good" when he designed it.
I take the account literally because without a real literal Adam, there could not be a real literal Second Adam as Jesus is called. If a figurative Adam sinned and didn't lierally caused all of his descendents to be born into a life of sin, then Jesus is a figurative Second Adam, and sin either doesn't exist or salvation is merely an illusion. Our sin would still remain.
A literal view of the fall would require details which were historical, otherwise, that view would not be literal.
"There are differnt types of literary genre." If you're a Jewish person, this particular genre of which Genesis was recorded as, was INTENDED to be an historical account. There is nothing in the text, nor in thousands of years of Jewish tradition to regard it as anything else. As English people, we shouldn't dismiss this precendent. It is only in modern day times with the advancement of a post-modern relativistic philosophy that this has recently been a conscern.
The fall did exactly what Satan wanted. It caused us to die, to reject the God of life, and embrace death. The fall was the choice to make ourselves the Provider, instead of accepting the true Provider.
I take the account literally because without a real literal Adam, there could not be a real literal Second Adam as Jesus is called. If a figurative Adam sinned and didn't lierally caused all of his descendents to be born into a life of sin, then Jesus is a figurative Second Adam, and sin either doesn't exist or salvation is merely an illusion. Our sin would still remain.
A literal view of the fall would require details which were historical, otherwise, that view would not be literal.
"There are differnt types of literary genre." If you're a Jewish person, this particular genre of which Genesis was recorded as, was INTENDED to be an historical account. There is nothing in the text, nor in thousands of years of Jewish tradition to regard it as anything else. As English people, we shouldn't dismiss this precendent. It is only in modern day times with the advancement of a post-modern relativistic philosophy that this has recently been a conscern.
The fall did exactly what Satan wanted. It caused us to die, to reject the God of life, and embrace death. The fall was the choice to make ourselves the Provider, instead of accepting the true Provider.
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""""Without the reality of a specific fall, sin would have to have been inherent in our species' creation and design.""""
Why? Or is this made under the pretense of inerrancy and consequently, a need to harmonize Biblical passages?
I have seen some suggest that the fall teaches that "we sin." What problems do you think this view has?
"""I take the account literally because without a real literal Adam, there could not be a real literal Second Adam as Jesus is called. If a figurative Adam sinned and didn't lierally caused all of his descendents to be born into a life of sin, then Jesus is a figurative Second Adam, and sin either doesn't exist or salvation is merely an illusion. Our sin would still remain. """
Well, I find it hard to accept a literal Adam in light of the findings of modern biology. But I find the historical existence of Jesus to be well attested. I agree though, theology would have to be altered and it would probably be impossible to accept inerrancy (which I don't).
"""If you're a Jewish person, this particular genre of which Genesis was recorded as, was INTENDED to be an historical account. There is nothing in the text, nor in thousands of years of Jewish tradition to regard it as anything else.""""
Can you cite any specific examples of Jewish tradition? Does Pliny or Josephus comment on the fall? Are there earlier Jewish sources we can look at? Also, do you know of where and when the Fall was first taught? Are there any parallels to it in other ancient literature? I know that many flood and creation accounts are found in ancient cultures.
Do you agree that the books of the OT were authored from 1000-100 BC. They do of course incorporate earlier components (oral and written).
"""The fall did exactly what Satan wanted. It caused us to die, to reject the God of life, and embrace death. The fall was the choice to make ourselves the Provider, instead of accepting the true Provider.""""
What Satan wanted? Dualism? And what do you mean by "us"? How does the sin of two people in a garden thousands of years ago relate to me? How does it cause me to reject the God of life? If I am sinner, I think it is because I sin. Not because two other people sinned long ago. And you meantioned death. Are you a young earth creationist? There was death long before the fall. Though I do know some who accept the findings of science and still posit that they think Adam and Eve might not have died so I won't press this.
Thanks for your time,
Vinnie
Why? Or is this made under the pretense of inerrancy and consequently, a need to harmonize Biblical passages?
I have seen some suggest that the fall teaches that "we sin." What problems do you think this view has?
"""I take the account literally because without a real literal Adam, there could not be a real literal Second Adam as Jesus is called. If a figurative Adam sinned and didn't lierally caused all of his descendents to be born into a life of sin, then Jesus is a figurative Second Adam, and sin either doesn't exist or salvation is merely an illusion. Our sin would still remain. """
Well, I find it hard to accept a literal Adam in light of the findings of modern biology. But I find the historical existence of Jesus to be well attested. I agree though, theology would have to be altered and it would probably be impossible to accept inerrancy (which I don't).
"""If you're a Jewish person, this particular genre of which Genesis was recorded as, was INTENDED to be an historical account. There is nothing in the text, nor in thousands of years of Jewish tradition to regard it as anything else.""""
Can you cite any specific examples of Jewish tradition? Does Pliny or Josephus comment on the fall? Are there earlier Jewish sources we can look at? Also, do you know of where and when the Fall was first taught? Are there any parallels to it in other ancient literature? I know that many flood and creation accounts are found in ancient cultures.
Do you agree that the books of the OT were authored from 1000-100 BC. They do of course incorporate earlier components (oral and written).
"""The fall did exactly what Satan wanted. It caused us to die, to reject the God of life, and embrace death. The fall was the choice to make ourselves the Provider, instead of accepting the true Provider.""""
What Satan wanted? Dualism? And what do you mean by "us"? How does the sin of two people in a garden thousands of years ago relate to me? How does it cause me to reject the God of life? If I am sinner, I think it is because I sin. Not because two other people sinned long ago. And you meantioned death. Are you a young earth creationist? There was death long before the fall. Though I do know some who accept the findings of science and still posit that they think Adam and Eve might not have died so I won't press this.
Thanks for your time,
Vinnie
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You've asked a whole load of very good questions. Let's start with the simplest one - you pick. 
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I think these three are pretty much on the same subject:
Can you cite any specific examples of Jewish tradition? Does Pliny or Josephus comment on the fall? Are there earlier Jewish sources we can look at?
So basically, the traditional Jewish traditional interpretation of the fall.
btw, Happy birthday!
Can you cite any specific examples of Jewish tradition? Does Pliny or Josephus comment on the fall? Are there earlier Jewish sources we can look at?
So basically, the traditional Jewish traditional interpretation of the fall.
btw, Happy birthday!
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- Aug 3, 2004
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Why is there evil in the world? Why do so many things go wrong?
The story of the Fall tells us that a broken relationship with God has badly distorted our world. The bible story is about putting that wrong right again.
John
NZ
The story of the Fall tells us that a broken relationship with God has badly distorted our world. The bible story is about putting that wrong right again.
John
NZ
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Rafael
Only time enough for love
Why restrict God to powerlessness in the affairs of men? The story of the fall shows me where two dimensions came together for a brief time, and science shows us that mathematically there are more dimensions unseen than the three we see and one we measure as time. Which of these unseen can we identify as the one God did not use to interact with the physical realm we inhabit now,setting in motion important events of revelation? To have love, it has to be chosen and not forced. God made a scenerio for events to take place where He could eventually fully reveal His nature of love to a family of people who would chose to love Him. The fact that He would recount this story briefly in the spiritually inspired writings of Moses somehow seems entirely possible to me and perfectly approriate. Not only does God reveal Himself there, but promises to share His divine nature with mankind through His Son.
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It was a relational separation with God, who walked with them in the garden. I see it as a reflection of our tendencies -- we don't like to take blame ourselves but pass it along to others; we justify our actions and cause others to mistrust us; when we are given more than we need, we move out of gratefulness to attempt to gain more; our curiosity can lead us to endanger ourselves, but we still follow through with it.
If you read a little further, there are similar commentaries on human tendencies in the Cain and Abel story -- Cain was jealous of who God gave attention to, so he acted it out in violence. God talked with him about this jealousy, and warned him ahead of time.
Every culture has its stories about behavior -- to me, these are more about conveying and sharing the human experience than about origins and sin.
We separate ourselves from those we love, by our stubbornness and determination.
What we usually go by, is what scholars in the appropriate fields have determined.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/jerutime.html
God didn't reject them. He relocated them.
The story shows how Satan tends to work. We can be reminded to watch out for deception, as well as self-driven nature.
I know that people tend to explain the story simplistically, but use your own common sense when you read it.
God did not give up on humans at that point.
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- May 29, 2005
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This thread is 5 years old, and the OP hasn't posted on these boards for a year and a half, so don't expect him to answer you.
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