The existence Satan

Bob,

Glad you mentioned "Once deprived of that access - their 900+ year life clock began ticking."

Because that brings in another question...how long were Adam and Eve in the Garden before the fall?

See if we don't start the clock ticking of their 900+ year life until they are kicked out of the Garden, then technically they could have been in the Garden for days, years, millenia, or even longer. While they were in the isolation of the garden the world could have been populated with all sorts of creatures...some have come and gone before even the fall. But that part is for another discussion....keeping with the topic of Satan...Satan could have been the good angel for those years, millenia, etc until pride entered and he ultimately tempted Eve and caused the fall of man.

There are several ways to guess at this.

1. Lucifer is created and instantly turns into a devil - on his 2nd or third day of life - befuddles 1/3 of the angels then tempts Eve... a very busy 3 or 4 days for the 5 day old Lucifer.

2. Or he is the covering cherub for 100's of years... then falls then this world is created along with Adam and Eve in a literal 7 day creation week - the already-fallen already leader of 1/3 of the angels "Devil" then assumes a disguise in keeping with hiis already fallen state - and patiently waits a couple of years for Adam and Eve to get "So comfortable" with their new home that they let their guard down and one of them happens by the forbidden tree for a bit of a peek.

In both examples all life on earth is in sinless pristine deathless condition until sin enters the world. Genesis 1 - God says the animals had plants for food -- not each other. And mankind had fruit and nuts for food - not animals.

3. Lucifer is created along with the angels - at some time not specified in the Bible. Adam and Eve live for 3 or 5 years as sinless beings and then one day... One day Lucifer is innocently sitting in the forbidden tree in his sinless state and suddenly, innexplicably comes up with a bad idea in the middle of talking to Eve in the form of a serpent. At this point Lucifer turns into the devil and 1/3 of the sinless angels seeing Lucifer do this - turn to each other and say "hey - we would like to be devils too" and so they all turn bad pretty much on the spot.

Even so - in all those "guessing" scenario the earth is in a sinless, pristine, deathless condition until the fall of mankind.

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Given all those guesses - I like the way "Story of Redemption" describes in eye-witness fashion what happened at the forbidden tree.

in Christ,

Bob

Berean777 said:

The Creation days were literal 24 hour days, wether they were 24 hours or 1000s years compared to our time today is inconsequential. Time in space can be so vast that in a high gravitational nexus

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Station break while we pause for reality....

Ex 20:8-11 tells us that "our days" and the Gen 1-2:3 days are the same days.

What is more - if this planet were in a high gravity field bending time then so also would be all life on this planet and also every radioactive decay rate -- in that same time frame so it does no good at all to speculate about some other time frame advancing 4 billion years "their time" in that 7 day week "our time" because it changes nothing "our time" including sedimentation layers, radio active decay rates etc would all be in the same time frame as the 7 day week. Buys you nothing on this earth or in our solar system. There would be no way to cram someone else's 4 billion years into our 7 day reality.

Lucifer is described in the Bible AND in the "Story of Redemption" as the most advanced of all created beings, not only sinless but vastly intelligent --- any guessing that has Lucifer acting goofy right out of the gate is probably a bad guess.

At the same time - Adam and Eve were no slouches. And so if they had rock-solid ingrained habbits of obedience for 1000 or a million years - they are pretty much "locked in" to obeying God at that point. Their characters etched in stone.

So sin for mankind could not have been 1000's of years from their start.

BobRyan said:

Station break while we pause for reality....

Ex 20:8-11 tells us that "our days" and the Gen 1-2:3 days are the same days.

What is more - if this planet were in a high gravity field bending time then so also would be all life on this planet and also every radioactive decay rate -- in that same time frame so it does no good at all to speculate about some other time frame advancing 4 billion years "their time" in that 7 day week "our time" because it changes nothing "our time" including sedimentation layers, radio active decay rates etc would all be in the same time frame as the 7 day week. Buys you nothing on this earth or in our solar system. There would be no way to cram someone else's 4 billion years into our 7 day reality.

Lucifer is described in the Bible AND in the "Story of Redemption" as the most advanced of all created beings, not only sinless but vastly intelligent --- any guessing that has Lucifer acting goofy right out of the gate is probably a bad guess.

At the same time - Adam and Eve were no slouches. And so if they had rock-solid ingrained habbits of obedience for 1000 or a million years - they are pretty much "locked in" to obeying God at that point. Their characters etched in stone.

So sin for mankind could not have been 1000's of years from their start.

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You have confused me.

BobRyan said:

There are several ways to guess at this.

1. Lucifer is created and instantly turns into a devil - on his 2nd or third day of life - befuddles 1/3 of the angels then tempts Eve... a very busy 3 or 4 days for the 5 day old Lucifer.

2. Or he is the covering cherub for 100's of years... then falls then this world is created along with Adam and Eve in a literal 7 day creation week - the already-fallen already leader of 1/3 of the angels "Devil" then assumes a disguise in keeping with hiis already fallen state - and patiently waits a couple of years for Adam and Eve to get "So comfortable" with their new home that they let their guard down and one of them happens by the forbidden tree for a bit of a peek.

In both examples all life on earth is in sinless pristine deathless condition until sin enters the world. Genesis 1 - God says the animals had plants for food -- not each other. And mankind had fruit and nuts for food - not animals.

3. Lucifer is created along with the angels - at some time not specified in the Bible. Adam and Eve live for 3 or 5 years as sinless beings and then one day... One day Lucifer is innocently sitting in the forbidden tree in his sinless state and suddenly, innexplicably comes up with a bad idea in the middle of talking to Eve in the form of a serpent. At this point Lucifer turns into the devil and 1/3 of the sinless angels seeing Lucifer do this - turn to each other and say "hey - we would like to be devils too" and so they all turn bad pretty much on the spot.

Even so - in all those "guessing" scenario the earth is in a sinless, pristine, deathless condition until the fall of mankind.

====================================
Given all those guesses - I like the way "Story of Redemption" describes in eye-witness fashion what happened at the forbidden tree.

in Christ,

Bob

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Agreed completely.
I have only primarily been discussing hypothesis #3

Here is the testimony of a Christian who claims to have gone into atheism then was drawn into a Satanic society - then escaped to Christianity. Interesting statements about what he says they were teaching at the time.

If you want answers, ask The LORD to open your eyes that you may behold wondrous things out of His TORAH/Teaching/Law.
Traditions of men is what you are asking questions about, of men, but what you are asking is not the doctrine of the Word of God/YHWH.
Satan is a whole class of created evil angels who are in heaven from the beginning and their purpose is to tempt, test, and try holy angels in heaven and the Adam creation.
Their reward for serving God in the separating out from the creation those who will believe the Creator and obey Him is the "food" they are rewarded with forever and forever, in the Lake of fire, which was prepared for the devil [a created evil angel] and his angels who serve him, under him.
Their food is to torment and to torture their prey forever, who become their legal property when they believe the lies of the satans, instead of the Truth which God spoke from the beginning.

The satans are called evil angels, Belial, Destruction, angel of death, and many other names, in the Tenach.
They have one chief, who is called "Prince Mastema" =the "Prince of the Satans", in the Book of Jubilee.
The Satans are the original preppers, laying up food to last them forever in the Lake of Fire, which is their kingdom of darkness prepared for them from the beginning, and where they will be boundaried in when they are cast into into it.
From there, they will never depart, so they want to go in wrath so as to gain as much [food to lay up], as they can, while they still have authority to do so.

It was never Satan who wanted to ascend to sit on the throne of God in heaven, but a satan tempted the female Adam who tempted the male Adam, who was defiled when he disobeyed the Word of YHWH.
In Ezekiel, the Hebrew says it is an Adam, who thought to sit on the throne of God, and all Adam bears the guilt of the first father of us. Only adoption into the New creation Man's One Living Spirit and flesh will give us the power to escape the Lake of Fire. God has redeemed "whosoever will", and His plan was promised from the beginning... to ransom us back and destroy the power of the "head" =the chief satan, who tempted Eve. who was herself, deceived, and then tempted her husband, who then willfully sinned.

The defilement of the Adam creation is irrevocable and is the reason why we who are the seed of the first father of us, who were created in his loins to come into our being as " holy sons of God" [Malachi 2:15] to build the temple of God not made with hands for the Glory to indwell, and to "plant the heavens thereby", must be born again, into the One Living Spirit of the Christ/Messiah, who is Himself God the Word come in flesh of a New Creation, and He is not named "Adam", but "Israel", in that flesh.

He came to be our Kinsman/Redeemer so as to ransom us back by his Acceptable Atonement, so as to cover the sin of our first father and then to reclothe us with the New Man Living Spirit, which is the Adoption of the spirit of us. We await the adoption of the flesh of us, which will be when we are elementally dissolved and regenerated anew in the flesh body, and clothed with the Glory that Adam lost at the fall.
The English translations do not do justice to the Truth of the Hebrew that God gave to the prophets, but you can take a concordance, and begin to seek out the words God has spoken through the prophets, in the Hebrew.

Look at Psalm 82 in the Hebrew, and see that Adam is the one prince that "died", and the warning God gives to the holy sons of God in His congregation of them is to do justice over that which they are entrusted to do, else they will "die like Adam, the one prince".

Look at the location of Eden, Gods holy Mount where the Paradise of God is located, in Scripture. It is in the third heaven, where the Tree of Life is, and from which Adam was driven out of [the Hebrew is "divorced"], when he was cast down, dead in spirit, to till the earth in vanity of his being, and from which earth his flesh, now corrupted by the entrance of the satans who "eat the dust" by the spiritual corruption of it that entered it's physical flesh when Adam "died", now have authority over it until The Everlasting Father and the King who ransomed it back by His Atonement takes up His power and reigns over it, in the New Man name, as the "Everlasting Father" as Adam would have done if he had not defiled his flesh irrevocably and lost the authority over it by Death entering in, and died as "Adam, son of God", forever. [Luke 3:38]

brotherjerry said:

Also look at the possibility that Satan fell when he caused man to fall. We are given no "time" as to when Satan rebelled against God...but leading man from God's path is a sure fire example of rebellion.

Also something to note is that Satan did have access to heaven before Christ. But it apparently is not open access, any time we see Satan in heaven, it is because he was summoned.

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please see my post above....you are correct that we are given no time for his fall because he was not created a holy angel, but created as the evil angel of darkness, to do what he does, and his reward is to torment the wicked and unrepentent in the Lake of Fire forever. "He" is an entire host of evil angels in heaven, and there is one chief of them.
They will torment the fallen angels and the unrepentant souls -in their own unregenerated bodies- of the Adam race forever, in their kingdom of darkness, which kingdom is the "second death". The Adam persons who are rejects and cast there are the "never dying worms" who can never be transformed to sons of God for the glory again, because they are cast there soul in body, minus the dead Adam spirit of their being. that is the Teaching of the Word on that which is first laid in the Book of Enoch, and carried through Torah to Revelation.

The evil spirits on earth are the demons, who do the same, as the evil spirits in heaven do, and they serve the satans while they roam earth as disembodied spirits of the offspring of the fallen angels and daughters of Adam, and they do this by God's authority until they are gathered by the holy angels at the return of the LORD of lords and King of kings, when He sends His holy angels to gather them as the tares not planted by Him, in the earth, and they are cast into the Lake of Fire, where they will be tormented forever forever by the satans.

The satans are the created evil spirits in heaven. They are created to do what they do, for the purpose of trying/testing the holy angels in heaven and the Adam creation on earth. They have one chief, the Prince of Darkness, and his kingdom is the Lake of Fire.

They get to do it til the tribulation, when the saints go up, they come down, and the "pillars of heaven are reset", as Psalm 75:2,3 in the Hebrew states. Their place is not found in heaven anymore, and they no longer appear before the throne to accuse the sons of Adam on earth -nor are angels falling in heaven. But they do not willingly come down [for the short time before they are locked in Sheol before the letting out of there at the end of the thousand years. They are let out to try and test the seed of the "Blessed of YHWH" who are born on earth in the millennial Sabbath of earth's Peace.

This is all in the Word.
Satan is not a fallen angel, and the only person cast out of Eden, in the third heaven, is Adam. Adam is spirit, soul, and body, and the Adam spirit died irrevocably and the flesh was defiled irrevocably the day he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil -it wasn't an apple, either.
It is a myth that satan is a fallen angel.
It is a myth that the fruit was an apple.

Everything God created is centered right here on this earth, and the entire heavens are stretched out from this earth, when it was just a globe of [pregnant, unformed elements, -so to speak] waters, with the firmament encircling the globe.
That is what the Record God Himself wrote, as the "Scripture of Truth in heaven" [Daniel 10:21, mentions it as established fact, and Enoch wrote of reading it in heaven], which copy Adam wrote came down to Moses from Adam, through the Patriarchs.

Adam made the record of it on earth, after the fall, when he was cast out from heaven above, in the third heaven, where Paradise is. Moses did not invent the Genesis record out of mystic, vague myths, but he had copies of the writings of the Patriarchs, beginning with that whihc Adam left of the record he had from being in Paradise above, before the fall.

Paradise is in the third heaven, stretched out from earth on day 2, and Adam was "raptured" to there from the earth to reign there, with the holy angels, and to multiply the seed in his loins as building stones to build the temple not made with hands for the Glory to indwell, and thereby to to "Plant the heavens", which Adam will never do, since the death of the Adam spirit and defilment of the Adam flesh.
God's word teaches in the Living Oracles that an earthen vessel, once defiled, can never be made clean for use as a holy vessel again. Hggai 2 also shows the laying of the Foundation Stone for the second Temple not made the hands, since the first [Adam] is defiled.

Adam was made "Adam, son of God", and a "prince" over earth, and his entire kingdom was given over to Corruption =to the satan/evil spirit, and Death -another satan/ evil spirit, when he fell.


God's plan goes on, but in the New Man name.

BobRyan said:

No... it was on earth. Notice how Moses describes its landmarks... on earth.

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The language of Genesis says that God planted a Garden [Paradise], eastward in Eden.

Eden is where Paradise is.

Paradise is in the third heaven.
Mount Eden is in the third heaven, then.

Also, the language of Geness says that God "raptured" Adam to the Garden.
The word "took" in Hebrew meaning "to go get, take, remove from one place to another, to marry, etc.
Adam was set there to "guard" Paradise.

To guard it and to labor.
Adam was created as a "son of God" [Luke 3:38], and made "male and female" to bring forth the seed from his loins as the building stones [holy sons of God], for the temple not made with hands for the Glory of God to indwell.

The first temple is irrevocably defiled as earthen clay, according to the Torah, and cannot be used ever, as a holy vessel to bear the Glory.

that is why we must be born again and that is why our first father was cast out of Paradise so as to not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever in that fesh, which cannot be made clean and is only fit for the Lake of Fire,as a reject.

The regeneration of our flesh is the hope of Glory we live for, when we have been regenerated in Spirit by the Seed of Adoption, into the One Living Spirit/Christ.
In that regenerated flesh, we will then "Plant the heavens" as sons of God, and as the stones which "build up Zion" above.

Adam lost the fellowship and the unity with the Father the day he died, but he did not lose the Adam spirit, of which each Adam soul shares [Malachi 2:15].
Psalm 82, in Hebrew, is clear that Adam is the one prince/ruler/son of God, who died and fell, and God warns the rulers above that they must do justice over earth, or they are in danger of dying like Adam, the one prince, and falling/being cast down, like him.

yeshuasavedme said:

The language of Genesis says that God planted a Garden [Paradise], eastward in Eden.

Eden is where Paradise is.

Paradise is in the third heaven.
Mount Eden is in the third heaven, then.

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Genesis never calls Eden Paradise. The rest of the Bible - never calls Eden - Paradise.

This is irrefutable.

Also, the language of Geness says that God "raptured" Adam to the Garden.

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1. The Bible does not say that God "raptured" Adam anywhere - the word rapture is not even found in the New Testament.

2. The Bible also does not say that God "raptured" Adam and Eve out of the garden.

Adam was created as a "son of God" [Luke 3:38], and made "male and female" to bring forth the seed from his loins as the building stones [holy sons of God], for the temple not made with hands for the Glory of God to indwell.

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Another story - not found in Genesis or in the entire OT -- nor does the NT say this about the creation man or Eden.

At some point - Bible details must matter.

BobRyan said:

Genesis never calls Eden Paradise. The rest of the Bible - never calls Eden - Paradise.

This is irrefutable.

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The Garden is Paradise. The meaning of Paradise is garden, and the Garden God planted is in Eden, in the third heaven.
Eden is also the Holy Mount of God, in heaven.
These are Bible facts, and the Book of Enoch gives the foundational information that these facts of Torah -through Revelation are built upon.

Paradise/the Garden of God is in the third heaven. Paul said he, or someone else he is speaking of [I think it was himself], was raptured to there, in the third heaven.

Jesus says the Tree of Life is in the midst of the Paradise of God, which is in the third heaven.

The Hebrew word translated rapture is transliterated "laqach". It means to take away, to remove from one place to another, to marry, and other things.
The first time it is used in the Torah, we see God took/raptured a rib [with bone marrow and flesh] and built a clone [with a share/remnant of the Adam spirit; Malachi 2:15], for the first human "man/ish".

To "laqach/rapture" to heaven is what God did to Enoch, when God "took him".
To rapture/laqach to heaven is what God did to Elijah, and to heaven is where God raptured him.
In Psalm 75:1,2, in Hebrew, it states that when God "raptures/laqach" the congregation from out of the midst of the earth, then He will judge/avenge them with righteousness, on the rulers in heaven and on earth below, and "the hearts of the inhabitants of earth will melt with fear", states that passage which Jesus also reiterates in the NT about that time.

There are other places that will likewise show the word means to remove from one place to another or to marry, and so on and so forth.

As to not being in the Bible as a word, it is Latin, and is in the Vulgate, and means to take away from one place to another.
It also means we are to be "married" to the Living Spirit, united to Him as Adam was, before Adam was "divorced" as the Hebrew word states, from His Living Spirit; irrevocably dead in spirit and defiled in flesh, and cast down from heaven and denied entry into Eden above so that he would not eat of the Tree of Life in the midst of the Garden/Paradise, and live forever as only a reject only fit for the Lake of fire.
Getting shut out of heaven was God's mercy to the Adam race, so that we can be regenerated in our flesh by the ransom price of the Kinsman/Redeemer, who adots us into His One Living Spirit and gives us His new Name, which is "Israel", as opposed to the Adam race.

Yeah I simply could not answer...there was just so much that was not found in the Bible in what he said

brotherjerry said:

Yeah I simply could not answer...there was just so much that was not found in the Bible in what he said

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Im a she, a mother of seven, grandma of 20, wife of one husband 52 years, great grandma of 6, and love the Word of God, and will give you chapter and verse for every thing I write, say, or believe [or else I will tell you it is my own opinion when it is not something made clear -and I can change opinions as I understand more].

But it is a great labor to do it over and over for those who do not go study these things for themselves. I hope to give enough to make those interested to go see for themselves, like good Bereans, what the Word does say, instead of just repeating man made myths as if they were established truth, which they are not.

Bob, the building stones for the temple of God in heaven not made with hands was why God made Adam male and female, with the "seed" in his loins to bring them forth as holy seed, to build up Zion above [of the Spirit, personified as a Woman from Genesis to Revelation], for the Glory to indwell. This is the theme of redemption into the New Man Living Spirit and name, to be made "pillars in His temple [Revelation 3:12].

The Everlasting Father of those adopted into the Living Spirit by the Atonement is the Only Begotten Son of God of the human beng kind, since the Adam is dead, and not son of God as he was created to be, in the beginning, out of the dust of the "adamah/ground". The New Creation Man is "The Son of Man" from heaven, which is Christ the Living Spirit in second creation flesh of human being kind.
His name, as Second Man/Ish, is not "Adam", but is "Israel" which is contracted from Hebrew Ish/Prince/God, and was invoked over Jacob as a sign of the Adoption to come, into that New Name.


Adam was the foundation stone/the Firstborn son of God of the human being kind, which would bring forth the living stones from his loins, for the building of that Living Temple made for the LIVING Glory of the LIVING God to indwell, and to plant the heavens thereby.

"Son" in Hebrew is the word "ben", from the word eben, a stone. Lots of words come from that " eben" "stone" word: son, bone, build are just three.

The seed is the "stones" created in the loins of the firstborn son of God of the human being kind [the earthling, Adam, named from the words for ground and blood, in Hebrew].
The seed was to come forth as sons of God, out of the loins of our first father, mothered in the womb of the mother of us all, to build the holy temple for the Glory to indwell.
We are all the seed of Adam, but spirituall dead stones, with no life in us and no way to go back to where our first father was cut off/divorced, from, to Paradise above and no way to be sons of God in Adam.
Luke 3:31
Malachi 2:15
Haggai 2
and so on.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Isa 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste*.

That is why the "Seed of the Woman [Zion above, personified as a Woman from Genesis to Revelation] was a "Barren Widow", when the Adam died in spirit and was cast out of/driven out of/divorced from the Living Spirit and the Glory above, in Paradise in the third heaven, and all we, who were created to be the stones for building up Zion above for the Glory to "Plant the heavens" by, must be redeemed, regenerated into the Spirit of Adoption and the flesh of adoption by the power of the Atonement for our redemption, finished once for all [for whosoever will], by the Only Living Firstborn human being Son of God of the human being kind, who is YHWH in the Person of the Word, come in flesh of a second creation human being Man named Israel [Isaiah 49], to be our Kinsman/Redeemer and our "Everlasting Father" and the "God of the whole earth" who has ransomed back all that the first firstborn son of God who is dead, sold into sin and corruption at the fall.

*shall not make haste is Isaiah quoting, by the Spirit, the revelation of the Son of Man that Enoch wrote of in his book, for the unbelieving "make haste" to fall away from Him at His throne of judgment, in shame, into Hell.

yeshuasavedme said:

Im a she, a mother of seven, grandma of 20, wife of one husband 52 years, great grandma of 6, and love the Word of God, and will give you chapter and verse for every thing I write, say, or believe [or else I will tell you it is my own opinion when it is not something made clear -and I can change opinions as I understand more].

But it is a great labor to do it over and over for those who do not go study these things for themselves. I hope to give enough to make those interested to go see for themselves, like good Bereans, what the Word does say, instead of just repeating man made myths as if they were established truth, which they are not.

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My apologies for not catching your gender and congrats on the family.

But please do not assume that one does not study. And much of what you have said rings of symbolism more than hard Biblical truth. And I beg to differ that with your statement that everything can be found in the Word of God...you cited something that you claim can be found in Enoch which is not in the Bible but is extrabiblical references.

brotherjerry said:

My apologies for not catching your gender and congrats on the family.

But please do not assume that one does not study. And much of what you have said rings of symbolism more than hard Biblical truth. And I beg to differ that with your statement that everything can be found in the Word of God...you cited something that you claim can be found in Enoch which is not in the Bible but is extrabiblical references.

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No problem. I give all glory to my Savior for my Salvation, my gender, my husband, my children, my grandchildren, and great grandchildren, and all He is doing and has done and shall do in us and through us.

Now, as to study: I "studied" the word for decades without having understanding of so many things that were kept hidden for understanding, because of Rome's deciding that Enoch should not be "canon", in the fourth century, which was centuries after Yeshua/LORD Jesus, established His Church on earth by sending the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, after His resurrection and ascension. It was also centuries after Enoch was used by the early Church fathers.The Holy Spirit did not just decide to ban Enoch in the fourth century. fallible men dissed it who had no authority from the Holy Spirit to do so. The Jews in Ethiopia who had long been converted to the Gospel and who had the Book of ENoch in ther writings did not follow Rome, so the Ethiopian Orthodox Church kept it in their "Bible".

You cannot find the foundational doctrines in the Torah to Revelation about all the things that are there mentioned as laid down truths of God's creation, like; the Lake of Fire; Sheol beneath earth; the origin of Demons, where the Holy Mount of God/Eden in heaven, is, the mystery of the Son of Man in heaven who was to come, what the Satans are and why; the Book of Life and the Book of Deeds; the calendar year, and how God measures the year by the heavenly paths of the sun and stars -and so much more foundationally laid down in the Book of Enoch, because the purpose of Torah and the writings after and the NT was not to relay a foundation again, which was already laid, but to build upon it.
The Son of Man in heaven is the theme of Enoch, and the revelation of Him to come was there prophesied of.


brotherjerry, understand that the word "bible" means only a "collection of books", and "canon" means a man made list of "a collections of books deemed sacred", and canon lists differ in all the Church age in all the Churches which are established on the Gospel of the Good News of Salvation in Christ come in flesh, as our Kinsman/Redeemer.

You are not able to dismiss Enoch from the "Bible" as easily as Rome did from the "canon", because history proves it has always been in the "collection of books" deemed sacred, since Enoch wrote it.
the birth mother of the Savior come in flesh had it in their "collection of books", and used it. James/Jacob, and Jude, womb brothers of the Messiah used it in their writings, and Jude outright states that "Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam prophesied...", and that was quoting from the opening of the Book of Enoch.

The Book of Enoch is canon in two orthodox Churches, who did not get the memo from Rome, paraphrasing summascriptura [Robert Burns], a poster here who has a website with the books on it.

So Enoch is in "my canon" and "collection of books deemed sacred writings", by myself, and has been in the collections of such as the Essenes of the Dead Sea Scroll fame, for they had many copies of copies of copies of it in their collection deemed "sacred", of the writings.

But what I write you can find echoed in Torah to Revelation, and using Enoch as the foundation book for understanding what Moses had and used and wrote from the knowledge of. Dismissing it, now that it has been opened to the western world since the late 18th century, when copies were brought back from Ethiopia Orthodox Church writings deemed sacred, and translated to English in the early 19th century.

Canon is a man made list which differs by the powers of politics in the Churches in all the Church age.
The Holy Spirit does not change His mind, and Jesus Christ is the Last Word from God....Enoch wrote of the Son of Man in heaven who was hidden in God, by God, with God, and who was God, and who was to come and be revealed, and in whose name the elect are saved [and the elect choose to be the elect, Enoch said]. The Book of Enoch is the foundation for the Gospel of God in Christ, and and Revelation is the final Revelation of Him, which Enoch said was to come.

Perhaps you should study just a little bit more...Rome did not decide to keep Enoch from canon...the Jews did. Enoch is not a New Testament writing. You will not find it in any fo the Jewish Tanakh. The oldest copies we have of Enoch and others, including Jubilees, Tobit, Wisdom of Sirach, Psalm 152-155, etc are dated from the second temple period which is 530 BC - 70 AD.
Even one of the oldest extant manuscripts we have of the greek bible the Septuagint which we have Old Testament manuscripts dating back before Christ did not include Enoch or Jubilees. What you will find is that the Protestant Bible (KJV, NIV, NASB, etc) and the Hebrew Bible are very close when it comes to the Old Testament books. Only some Orthodox and the Catholics will have the extra books as part of their Bibles and even then most do not use them as doctrinal but historical works.

You will also find that by the 3rd Century AD that almost the entire Bible as we have it today (wtihout Enoch) can be put back together again by using the writings of the early church fathers. I completely understand that canon is technically man made...but man makes other books too and we have to rely upon the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to understand that Satan will also write books and pass them off as "canon" in order to lead man astray...was not his first deed among men the twisting of the Word of God? Yes.

As to what you say you can't find in the Bible, as we have it today... well that is not true at all. We find the origin of Lucifer, the serpent of old, the morning star that fell. All in the Bible as we have it. You find the lake of fire, the book of Life, etc...all mentioned in enough detail in the 66 books we have.

I would say we should not debate this further in this thread. This thread is in reference to the existance of Satan. If you wish to discuss what books should be included in canon and which ones should not, then I would suggest you start a new thread to discuss that.

The above post is in error about the Book of Enoch and its relevance to the thread on the existence of Satan, and it's history in the Church from the beginning, and its history in the world, from its writing by Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam [as Jesus' womb brother Jude, asserts as truth]. That has been discussed on other threads.


In Enoch, we have the record of Enoch's audience with God, "the Great Glory", in heaven, on the matter of the fallenWatcher/judges/ruler angels, who asked Enoch to intercede for Them with God [Enoch 14, 15]. God gave the answer that Enoch records, and in that answer, we see that the satans are evil spirits in heaven, created to do what they do, until the end of this present creation, when the harvest is in and all the seed are finished being tested by the satans.

Those who fail the testings become the prey for the Tormenters [the Satans], to torment forever, in the Lake of fire. Enoch said -and Jesus corroborates- that the Lake of fire is made for the devil and his angels. It is their kingdom, and it was not created for man, but fallen man who is cast there will be tormented along with the demons and the fallen angels, forever, by the satans.

The Lake of fire is the "kingdom of Darkness" that the chief Satan is the Prince of, where he and his evil angels [created as evil spirits] torment those who are their prey, whom they captured with lies, and who acted upon those lies, without repenting, and who then became "children of wrath" thereby.

in Enoch, we also read that the demons [who are the disembodied offspring of the fallen Watcher angels and the daughters of Adam] are to remain on earth as evil spirits on earth, doing the bid of the satans to whom their fathers became subject when they were tempted, and fell; and then, at the end of the sixth week of this present creation, they are to be gathered up by the Holy Angels, as the tares, [tares is the word darnel, meaning bastard wheat], and cast into the Lake of Fire, where they will be tormented forever because they are the unlawful, illegal bastards, born of illegal fornication by the fallen Watchers with the daughters of Adam [as Jude aslo repeats, from Enoch].

Because Enoch already laid the foundation, then one familiar with it -as the prophets of the OT were- can write about the things they do, in heaven and on earth, without laying the foundation for their existence over, again, for it is already laid in the Book of Enoch.


So the existence of the Devil and his angels -who are the created evil spirits in heaven [corrborated in the Torah and the writings and the prophets], is laid foundationally in the Book of Enoch, which is "canon" in two eastern Orthodox Churches, and always was included in the "Bibles" of ancient Jewish collections of the writings deemed sacred.

Even Abram/Abraham had copies of it and read from it to the wise men of Pharoah who returned Sarah to him and asked him to teach them "wisdom, values, and truth", and so he read to them from the Book of Enoch. This is recorded in the Genesis Apocryphon discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

NOTE: the Essenes were keeping their own copies of Enoch from the third century BC to after Jesus was born and died and ascended, and their books were used as their Bible. They had multiple copies of Enoch which they studied as sacred writing. They left their bible [collection of books] in the Qumran caves, and we know their manuscripts as the DSS, so do not say the Jews did not use Enoch nor deem it sacred, as the Essenes considered themselvs the pure Israelites and the priesthood in Jerusalem as unlawful.

Those Essenes who used and left the dead Sea Scrolls were also contempories of the Messiah. Josephus said he studied with them for a time, and he wrote of them.

There are other books which are in the "writings" the Jews had and used that tell us the Satans are the evil angels and that their job is to tempt and test the sons of Adam, to see what sort each is.

In the Book of Jubilees [which is not inspired and does not agree with the Torah and Enoch and the history Book of Jasher [which all do agree with themselves], the "Prince Mastema" mentioned means the prince of the satans.

Satan is not a fallen angel. that is a man made myth, but he is a created evil angel, and there is one prince of the created evil angels. They accuse, tempt [only with God's permission] and try, the holy Watcher angels in heaven and the sons of Adam, on earth.
They lie, seduce, and slander before God those whom they want to test and those who failed the testings. They murder, torment, torture, afflict and enslave those who become their prey.

Jesus came to set us free from being children of wrath, and to give us the adoption of sons of God, so as to escape the damnation of the Lake of Fire, where those cast there are forever the prey of the evil angels.

So instead of attempting to disprove anything I said...you simply want to say I am in error? Really?

Your argument was that the church sealed canon incorrectly. But yet you want to believe that the church also sealed the Jewish canon? Got any proof of that? I love it when people try and say that the Church made our Bible the way it is today and left out all the other books....but yet ignore the fact that the Jews pretty much use the same old testament "the Church" does...since when does "the Church" have enough influence to tell the Jewish community what books to include in their canon?

The oldest Tanakh written in Hebrew that we have is housed in Jerusalem in the National Hebrew Library. The Leningrad Codex. It contains 39 books, Enoch is not one of them. There were several stages in the translation of the Hebrew Scriptures to Koine Greek found in the Septuagint and they were done between the 3rd and 2nd century BCE, they did not include Enoch.

Your argument about the Essenes also fails based on historical fact. The Essenes were not seen by other Jews as well as themselves and standard Jews. There are Jewish legends that Kabbalah actually has some roots in the traditions of Hasidic Judiasm which the Essenes were seen to be. They were very much sectarian, kind of like how the Westboro Baptist folks really are nothing like any of the other Baptist.

Satan is not a fallen angel. that is a man made myth, but he is a created evil angel, and there is one prince of the created evil angels. They accuse, tempt [only with God's permission] and try, the holy Watcher angels in heaven and the sons of Adam, on earth.

Click to expand...

And see comments like these go against ideas presented in the Bible we have.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one
That is "THE EVIL ONE" not plural.

Revelations 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan
Satan is referred to as a single entity. That entity is also called the great dragon and the serpent of old.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil
THE DEVIL...not the devils

2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light
Again Satan is singular not plural

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning
the devil is singular. It is also in reference to murdering from the beginning....causing Adam and Eve to die as promised by God for disobeying....this verse puts "the devil" as the same as "Satan" or the "evil one"

2 Corinthians 2:11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes
Satan is singular...even referenced as "his"

Matthew 25:41 ... into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

These verses and more give us clear image that Satan is a singular being and is the Devil and is the "head" of the fallen angels.

In reference to Satan being created evil...the Bible says otherwise.
Ezekiel 28:13,15 "...On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezekiel clearly tells us that Satan was created blameless.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned
We see that God did not spare the angels when they sinned....before they sinned they were blameless as mentioned in Ezekiel.

It is because there are so many verses in what we have as the Bible that give us a clear image of Satan and the angels that other books like those in Enoch that present a different picture are not considered inspired and part of the canon.

Whether the Apocrypha is seen as canon or not depends upon what churches and church fathers you re looking to. Palestinian Jewry apparently did not consider it canonical, at least according to Josephus. However, Alexandrian Jewry did. Catholicism considers the Apocrypha canonical. That was became Jerome translated the first Latin Bible, fro m the Septuagint, which has more books. Protestantism is often naively assumed to have dropped the Apocrypha. However, it is generally overlooked that this was not right away. Luther included the Apocrypha in his Bible and so did the KJV 1611.