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The Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism

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Punchy

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I have a friend who is earning his PhD under Alvin Plantinga. This professor seems like a pretty sharp guy.

Naturalism Defeated by Alvin Plantinga
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/phil...icles/plantinga_alvin/naturalism_defeated.pdf

Peace.
 

XTE

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OK, here is the "chance" argument again. Gotta love it even the 10,000 time you've heard it.

IT ISN'T CHANCE OUTSIDE OF MUTATION! There is no chance in my choosing who to copulate with. It's a choice! Get it?

Now, for "chance arrangement of atoms in the head." I can shove a pencil up anyones nose and they will be essentially a zombie. They will lack emotion and cannot practice their own discretion from there on out. That is proof of a system. A tried an true system of the brain. Now, I can take a pencil to another part of your brain and you will lose only the ability to love. Sociopaths sometimes have this. I can take a pencil to another persons brain in the general area and the same thing will happen. Again, consistent brain functioning. Here is my argument to C.S. Lewis, and not wanting to pick on his antiquated knowledge:

If I can take love out of someones life with a pick of the brain, and God "IS LOVE," then I can take God out of someones life. Correct?

Punchy, there are some facts in this world that make it seem as if we aren't special. You might call them "harsh realities." I'd ask you to get over them.

If you don't trust me on this, shove a pencil up your nose.
 
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HumanisticJones

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I think I missed where naturalism negated the fact that human brains develop by forming relational links between concepts, objects, events, etc and then uses these experiences to allow us to make informed decisions about our lives. It seems that this arguement is stating that all behavior is predetermined genetically. Or is it just me reading it wrong at 5:30 am?
 
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Valkhorn

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I also love how people try to debunk an obvious and simple idea like Evolution with really long paragraphs that use poor arguments and really don't say anything.

It's like trying to solve a problem by chewing bubble gum - it goes on forever and doesn't get you anywhere.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Plantinga seems to dismiss the more likely evolutionary scenario - in which consciousness and abstract thought developed gradually and are integrated with, and to some extent beholden to, the more primitive and deterministic emotions and instincts - in favor of a bizarre caricature wherein human intellect popped into existence fully-developed and operates as some kind of rogue mental agent.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, because I have a great deal of sometimes antagonistic respect for Plantinga, and I can't imagine him getting something so fundamental to his argument so completely wrong.
 
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Punchy

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C. S. Lewis couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag to save his life. I will not take the time to argue this.

Lewis was one of the greatest minds of the 20th century, the most well read man of his generation, an author of over thirty books, and the most formidable opponent you could have in debate.

Let's get back to the main point -

What reason would we have to trust an evolved brain?
 
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The Nihilist

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The greatest minds of the 20th century include but are not limited to: Niels Bohr, Albert Einstein, Martin Heidegger, (I forget his first name) Wittgenstein, Hannah Arendt, and what the heck, Kurt Vonnegut. C. S. Lewis was a hack, and that you think he was so smart indicates your own lack of education.
Most well-read man of his generation? He was hardly the most well-read neoPlatonist of his generation. And writing 30 books is not an impressive accomplishment when they're the books that Lewis wrote.
 
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XTE

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Do you drive a car? Do you use an oven? Do you add up 2 and 2 and get 4? Do you cook hotdogs in the microwave at 2 minutes consistently and get the same result every time? Do you fly in planes? Do you not go out when there are Tornado warnings? Who typing on that computer your using to post?

GIVE ME A BREAK WITH THESE "ARGUMENTS!" PLEASE, JUST GIVE HUMANITY AND YOURSELF SOME CREDIT. It's truly unreal to read some of the things I see on this website.

Let's get back to living....
 
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TeddyKGB

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What reason would we have to trust an evolved brain?
Because we have excellent reason to think that the underlying system of matter and energy operates according to consistent logical axioms and mathematical principles.
 
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TemperateSeaIsland

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Why an evolved brain? Even without getting into the "our brains came from lesser creatures how can we trust them?"line we know that the human brain is flawed regardless that we are evolved or created. Experience shows humans make mistakes but by using methodologies such as the scientific method and logic we seek to minimize and sometimes undo mistakes. How can we trust our ability to understand reality? Well we cant 100% but to turn that to not being able to trust anything our senses and the evidence tells us leads to postmodern philosophical babble.
 
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P

Punchy

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Wow. Am I catching a little anti-Christian bias?
 
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XTE

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Wow. Am I catching a little anti-Christian bias?

Oh, you poor victim! Oh, you poor thang you!

I'm crying for you now.

OK, now I'm not.

You aren't catching "a little anti-Christian bias." You are finding reality slapping you in the face and claiming yourself right, call it bias.

Am I seeing another opportunistic Christian?

Way to frame debates!
 
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XTE

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The argument, as stated by Lewis and Plantinga, is against naturalistic evolution. A divine hand would open up the possibility that a trustworthy mind could have evolved.

First sentence: If it isn't NATURALISTIC Evolution, then it isn't Evolution. You use NATURALISTIC because you consider it evil to be natural and it's a demonizing term you can throw around on Sundays with your YES MEN and have a good laugh. Go pat each other on the back.

Second sentence: YOU HAVE DEFINED your God as all-power(able to do anything.) So when you say it "opens up the possibility that a trustworthy mind could have evolved" you do nothing but issue the biggest DUH statement in your world. Captain Obvious instead of Punchy?
 
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Asimov

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Naturalism is mutually exclusive from God, TEBeliever, so he's essentially saying Evolution that isn't directed by a deity.
 
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TeddyKGB

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The argument, as stated by Lewis and Plantinga, is against naturalistic evolution. A divine hand would open up the possibility that a trustworthy mind could have evolved.
Along with every other conceivable possibility. Which is precisely why supernaturalism is not scientific.
 
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