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The Eucharist: True differences between Catholics and Orthodox???

~Anastasia~

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I will say one thing though, Erose. And this is observation, not condemnation.

Do you see what you are doing? You search for proof that Orthodox go into all the details that you apparently accept from Catholicism. You don't seem to be able to accept the simplicity I have given you.

THAT is the major difference, IMO.

Have you ever seen someone try to write 100 pages explaining the Holy Trinity, as encapsulated in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed? It can't really be done without forging into something we don't or can't know, that can thus be error.

It is the same with the Eucharist. Along with the Holy Trinity, there are just some things we know, but a point where we must stop and embrace mystery beyond that.

But I will ask the priests.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I must first offer a correction to what I have posted, with my apologies. I suppose to make more sense I will post the conversation in order.

I said: "I have been told (1) the bread and wine (and water) are changed to the Body and Blood of the Risen Lord Jesus Christ through the power/action of the Holy Spirit. And (2) that in response to "Is it the Body and Blood? Is it bread and wine?" that the correct answer is simply "Yes" (to all). And (3) that beyond this is Mystery, and we say no more. (Other than what can be found in the prayers and Liturgy, such that it is for the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting, that we should prepare, and so on.)"

The Abbot replied: "The bread and wine of the Eucharist are "CHANGED" into the True Body and Blood of Christ. Of course our senses still perceive bread and wine. We do not employ the RC metaphysical argument of transubstantiation but only profess there is a CHANGE by the power fo the Holy Spirt and that what was once merely bread and wine is now the very Body and Blood of Christ. So no, after the consecration we do not call the consecrated elements bread and wine but the Most Holy and Precious Body and Blood of Christ and leave it at that. It is a Holy Mystery that cannot be described beyond that."

I gratefully received the correction. (I wonder if he would take it the wrong way if I told him but - I love that man. He used to be rather harsh and stern toward me in the beginning, but he has always faithfully corrected me and explained whatever I asked, and I will always be thankful for him in that.)

Anyway, I myself was a little concerned when you said that you were worried about Orthodox theology I think over the point of saying "yes" to all. Technically it is true in a sense, since we perceive it as bread and wine, but the Abbot is right that we never call it that. So I won't use that to explain anymore. I think divorced from the context in which I received it, it implied something I wasn't fully appreciating in my attempts to distill our beliefs. I apologize for misleading in this.


As to the rest of the Abbot's reply, I'm not quite sure what he meant about the metaphysical part that we do not share. He is very gracious to help my understanding and correct me when I ask for it, but I don't think he has time for delving into the kinds of things we do here, such that he would be concerned to explain a theology we don't share to me.

You learn that certain things you can ask an Abbot, and certain things you don't press.

But I suspect that is where your answer is?
 
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prodromos

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Are you happy for us to use Keenan's Catechism as authoritative Catholic teaching regarding the Papacy?
 
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All4Christ

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FTR, the abbot's comments match what I've been taught as well. It's a very good explanation
 
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~Anastasia~

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FTR, the abbot's comments match what I've been taught as well. It's a very good explanation
I can always trust what he says.

And that was my understanding, and I shouldn't have repeated the "yes" to all answer without qualification. I appreciate, always, those extra voices to let me know how I'm coming across. Without the context (and I'm seeing more and more how I missed that) I really did say something I didn't mean to say. I can handle the embarrassment lol, but I sure hope I haven't confused or misled anyone anywhere. I think I have repeated it only on CF. i hope.
 
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Erose

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It seems you have found someone teaching Orthodoxy from a Catholic stand point. As you likely know, there is no set catechism in the Orthodox Church... yet here you have posted one. I take it from that alone, that this is, that person's opinion.
Look, I provided the links to the page that I got this from. I didn't pull this info out of some ambiguous source, and not provide the ability for those who are interested to fact check me.

This catechism comes from the Russian Orthodox, and it seems that the website that I pulled it from is a Russian Orthodox website. So maybe Greek Orthodox don't believe in Catechisms but it sure looks like the Russians at least at one point or another thought that they were nice to have.

I don't know what the authority of this catechism possesses. I don't know how this all works in the East.

I don't know maybe the Russians, have a clearer understanding on the matter, than the Greeks.
 
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Erose

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Actually no I'm not doing nothing of the sort. What I have garnered here on this thread, and forgive me for pointing this out, is that from three different Orthodox brethren, I have received three different answers to the question. So I did what I should have done in the beginning, and went out to find documents discussing the subject from an Orthodox perspective, so that I can understand what is believed.

But it seems that even with these Orthodox documents, at least one Orthodox brethren doesn't accept them as teaching Orthodox doctrine, so who do I trust here?

All4Christ has been explaining is what the Orthodox church teaches. I haven't come across any documents yet, that teach either consubstantiation or the Calvinistic view of the Eucharist.

Have you ever seen someone try to write 100 pages explaining the Holy Trinity, as encapsulated in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed? It can't really be done without forging into something we don't or can't know, that can thus be error.
But there are quite a few Saints in the Early Church Fathers that have gone into much detail about the Holy Trinity and have done their best to explain all that they know on the subject.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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On this thread, I don't see the great differences you have been told by other Orthodox Christians.
Even what you quoted says much the same, although they seem to be trying to use or explain what transubstantiation "would" mean from an Orthodoxy perspective. We find it best not to engage the word at all, lest others believe that it's our word.

Forgive me...
 
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~Anastasia~

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I would refer you to the Abbot I quoted above.

And another priest adds this, which might be helpful.
"Transubstantiation is a particular model which describes the change of the Gifts. We Orthodox generally don't use that term to describe the change, though in the past some Orthodox--especially Russians have. The Greek term usually used to describe the change is metabole. We Orthodox believe the Gifts have been changed but we do not have a codified philosophy to describe that change. Fr Dmitru Staniloe offers a marvelous image to describe the change that does not try to define the Mystery too far but does express the Mystery in a way that is better graspable."

Before I got into waters too deep for myself, I should have asked for help. I apologize for not doing so. You might understand that it is possible to ask three Catholics to explain a doctrine and get slightly differently nuanced replies. Whether that relates to their particular understanding, the kinds of focus they themselves have in interacting with others, and so on. I would ask the same charity from you.

One of the key values of this forum (Traditional Theology) is not to tell others what they believe. We do that because it really is easy to misunderstand someone with a different perspective, and that is increased when we all try to frame it to suit your understanding. But I think we are all trying to tell you that we believe the same thing. I get the impression from you (forgive me if I'm wrong) ... but you seem to want us either to agree with Catholic teaching, or to believe that we don't agree with one another. I'm not sure why that is.

But I think we (Orthodox) all believe the same thing about the Eucharist. I prefer not to compare/contrast it with the Catholic understanding, but the priests and Abbot I have heard from so far tell me that metaphysically we don't explain the Mystery.

I will see if I can find the teaching they commended to me. There has been further discussion as well, but these I have shared seem the most applicable.

I hope that helps.
 
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Erose

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On this thread, I don't see the great differences you have been told by other Orthodox Christians.
I disagree. What I have seen expressed by different Orthodox christians has been basically the Catholic Position, another expressed consubstantiation, and if I remember correctly your position is in line with the teachings of Calvin, that that Jesus is only spiritually present in the Eucharist. Those are significant differences.


Honestly I'm not trying to do anything of the sort. Just want clarity, which just isn't happening from an Orthodox perspective with those who I am discussing the matter with.

If Orthodoxy believes in consubstantiation, then fine, that is all I want to know. If Orthodoxy believe that Christ is just spiritually present in the Eucharist then okay. If Orthodoxy teaches transubstantiation, but doesn't like the word for whatever reason, great. It is your beliefs that I'm asking about. I know mine and they aren't going to change, because you believe something else.

When I have gone to "Orthodox" websites looking for that clarity, I have found nothing that would contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church. When I have asked here what is different, I get pretty much standard answers such as we don't like that you attempted to explain the "how" or that you guys go too far in explaining the matter. But I haven't seen anyone explain why these are the case.

Here is my point on the matter. I'm not absolutely sure what Orthodoxy believes, and that may not change after this thread. What I am absolutely sure of is that what Catholicism and what the Early Church Fathers taught, is exactly the same, in this I am completely confident in.
 
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Erose

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Okay so the answer given by the Abbot is what we call transubstantiation. And no it isn't an argument; it is a term used to refer to what we believe in one single word. Much like we use terms such as the "Trinity" and "Incarnation". Both terms were invented by the Church to refer to what we believe.

Here is the thing I'm getting. Orthodox believes that the bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, which is what we call transubstantiation; but do not want to accept the Latin term for it. Am I wrong in this assessment?
 
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Erose

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Okay now this is making more sense. The issue seems to be not in the definition of what transubstantiation means, albeit the term "essence" is preferred over the term "substance"; but rather it isn't an Orthodox word. So the word is not accepted by Orthodoxy.
 
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Erose

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I'm curious about what is meant by a codified philosophy. It really seems to me, again I'm sorry for overemphasizing this, that the issues the East has over this doctrine in the West isn't what transubstantiation is, but what they think it is.

Here is the difference though. You may ask three Catholics to explain a doctrine; but at the end of the day it is easy to fact check them. You don't even have to hunt for obscure texts to do so. Just go to our Catechism for the answer.

Look in no way have I attempted to tell you what you believe. If I have come across in that way then I apologize. Again, as I have stated before, I'm not sure what you believe, so if I'm not sure what you believe, then how can I tell you what you believe? I'm not trying to be contrary on this matter, and I apologize for seeming to be that way; but I also hope that this is forcing you to learn a little bit more about your faith. I know that I have from this conversation a much better grasp of the Catholic teachings on the Eucharist.
I get the impression from you (forgive me if I'm wrong) ... but you seem to want us either to agree with Catholic teaching, or to believe that we don't agree with one another. I'm not sure why that is.
All I am looking for is some clarity on the matter.

Okay. Do you think that those ECFs who did metaphysically explain the Mystery were wrong or in error? Since it seems that Orthodoxy thinks it is wrong for the Catholic Church to define the Mystery, it would seem likely that Orthodoxy would condemn the ECFs for doing the same thing correct?

I hope that helps.
Again I apologize for seeming to be contrary on this, but I'm really getting substantially different answers from different Orthodox sources, and I'm just trying to understand.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Dwelling on these points is wrong. It serves no liturgical purpose. It doe not enhance prayer life.

Missing the forest for the trees. Trying to understand a mystery that was left intentionally as mystery.

I have a feeling the Abbot would say; Return to your prayers.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Words are important to theology.

Is the body and blood of Christ there when we partake? Yes! I don't know how. The term most often used by Orthodox Christians is "mystically changed". Did I say spiritual? I may have, it is certainly true as well.

Since the theology of transubstantiation and physical change is something that divides, we say leave it as mystery.

Why try to circumscribe an un-circumscribeable subject?

The Liturgy uses the word "IS" and that is all that is important. HIS words, and the Apostles repeat them, echoing the entire service.

If we don't believe that to be "real" then we have missed what we are communing with, and could rightly be called non-believers.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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This may also be true for us, we are not bound to call them perfect. Many an ECF has been wrong about many things. Many crossed several lines they should not have. King David and Moses did too.

Forgive me...
 
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~Anastasia~

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Yes, the Abbot would have stern words for me at some point, as would my SF. I have already gotten them from some laity, lol, but I know why I have many of the discussions I have on here.
 
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~Anastasia~

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ok .... some Orthodox Churches use the word "transubstantiation". It is not the word we object to. It is that we are concerned with being misunderstood to have other things attached that we do not have.

What we believe is not hard to find. Read the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It is all in there.

We believe that the bread and wine (and water) are changed into the Body and Blood of the Risen Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

THAT is what we believe about what the Eucharist is. To expand on or explain the Eucharist itself beyond this, we do not do. Because it is a Mystery. You can decide if you agree with that or not. Would you accept your Catechism with everything else relating to those points removed?

Practice includes such things as proper preparation to receive it, that the priest prays that it is "for the remission of sins and life everlasting" as we receive it, and that we use leavened bread for very specific theological reasons. I know that we differ on some of these.

That's the bottom line. I don't think me saying it again is going to make it any more clear. If All4Christ, or OrthodoxyUSA, or any other Orthodox Christian believes anything different about what the Eucharist IS ... I would invite them to say so. But I don't think you will ever hear that (unless someone is purposely opposing the Church).

But this really has gone far beyond being edified. I'm not sure what the problem is. Do all Orthodox believe the same thing - yes, we do, if we are following the Church, and that is part of being Orthodox. Do Catholics agree? I don't know. I've told you how to tell ... would you accept that one sentence in blue above, with the statement that anything further we do not speculate, because it is a Mystery, as your entire Eucharistic theology? If anything is added, to that degree, we differ.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I am not sure why this isn't being resolved? I stepped back in because you took away from it that between three different Orthodox Christians, we had three different beliefs, and that isn't right. For my part, I tried to be helpful by expanding and explaining, and in so doing, perhaps I went against what we say in that it is a Mystery. May God forgive me, and I ask your forgiveness as well.
 
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Erose

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So are you saying then that when the Fathers of the Church clarified and defined the orthodox understanding of the Trinity and Incarnation were wrong in doing so? When the Fathers of the Church who did dwelling on the Mysteries and what they meant, where they wrong in doing so as well?
 
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