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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
The ethics and morality of Pascal's wager
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<blockquote data-quote="Silmarien" data-source="post: 74225099" data-attributes="member: 395596"><p>And what if there are real-world consequences? I was a non-theist for most of my life, and I've found that Christianity actually does make a real, measurable difference even in the present. Worldviews affect how we view reality in the here and now, so religions <em>do</em> in fact involve real world decision making with real world consequences. A real world cost/benesis applies: if the choice is between two unverifiable worldviews, one of which provides temporary benefits while potentially promising eternity, and the other of which causes problems now, with the threat of those problems potentially being eternal tacked on for good measure, why pick the second? That sounds like a really stupid decision.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Who is attempting psychological manipulation? Certainly not Pascal, since he has been dead for centuries. A religion is more a social construct than anything else--certain ideas can have negative consequences, but I don't see how they can be manipulative in and of themselves. They're not agents.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This all seems very simplistic. You can run into social pressure and manipulation anywhere, sometimes intentional, sometimes not. Religion hardly has a monopoly on that sort of problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Consider for a moment the possibility that I might not be a brainwashed victim of an evil religion, incapable of independent objective thought. It's extremely condescending to suggest I need your help to understand how manipulation works in institutions and social structures, religious or otherwise.</p><p></p><p>I've been somewhat sympathetic to your concerns, because I actually <em>do</em> have serious issues with coercion and manipulation myself. That includes not just emotional manipulation and institutional problems, but also the type of passive aggressive intellectual manipulation you're been engaging in throughout this whole conversation: mockery, belittlement, condescension, accusing everyone of lying, and so forth and so on.</p><p></p><p>I've ignored it so far, but I do think it's abusive. My background is in liberal feminism, and one of the first things I noticed about these sorts of arguments between theists and non-theists was the constant, aggressive use of gaslighting: you are stupid, you are deluded, you are ignorant, you don't know what you're talking about, you're <em>credulous</em>... let me save you from yourself because I am the rational one. I am the one with the power and the answers. Patriarchy 101, coopted by the anti-theists. It's not hard to notice if you know what you're looking for.</p><p></p><p>If you wish to discuss emotional manipulation, you should make more of an effort to not come across as emotionally manipulative. You are not the only one here who reacts badly to it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Silmarien, post: 74225099, member: 395596"] And what if there are real-world consequences? I was a non-theist for most of my life, and I've found that Christianity actually does make a real, measurable difference even in the present. Worldviews affect how we view reality in the here and now, so religions [I]do[/I] in fact involve real world decision making with real world consequences. A real world cost/benesis applies: if the choice is between two unverifiable worldviews, one of which provides temporary benefits while potentially promising eternity, and the other of which causes problems now, with the threat of those problems potentially being eternal tacked on for good measure, why pick the second? That sounds like a really stupid decision. Who is attempting psychological manipulation? Certainly not Pascal, since he has been dead for centuries. A religion is more a social construct than anything else--certain ideas can have negative consequences, but I don't see how they can be manipulative in and of themselves. They're not agents. This all seems very simplistic. You can run into social pressure and manipulation anywhere, sometimes intentional, sometimes not. Religion hardly has a monopoly on that sort of problem. Consider for a moment the possibility that I might not be a brainwashed victim of an evil religion, incapable of independent objective thought. It's extremely condescending to suggest I need your help to understand how manipulation works in institutions and social structures, religious or otherwise. I've been somewhat sympathetic to your concerns, because I actually [I]do[/I] have serious issues with coercion and manipulation myself. That includes not just emotional manipulation and institutional problems, but also the type of passive aggressive intellectual manipulation you're been engaging in throughout this whole conversation: mockery, belittlement, condescension, accusing everyone of lying, and so forth and so on. I've ignored it so far, but I do think it's abusive. My background is in liberal feminism, and one of the first things I noticed about these sorts of arguments between theists and non-theists was the constant, aggressive use of gaslighting: you are stupid, you are deluded, you are ignorant, you don't know what you're talking about, you're [I]credulous[/I]... let me save you from yourself because I am the rational one. I am the one with the power and the answers. Patriarchy 101, coopted by the anti-theists. It's not hard to notice if you know what you're looking for. If you wish to discuss emotional manipulation, you should make more of an effort to not come across as emotionally manipulative. You are not the only one here who reacts badly to it. [/QUOTE]
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