The error of an eternal hell

[gadesa]

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28


The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death-eternal death. Only the righteous are promised life-eternal life.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11, 12.

Let me ask a question: Do those wicked ones in the lake of fire have the Son of God? Of course not. Then how could they have life? John says, "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15.

 

[Julian of York]

Hello, Gadesa, and welcome to the Forum!
I fear that I am unable to follow your train of thought. It seems that your subject is "The Error of an eternal hell" and yet you give Scripture that Enforces a belief in an eternal hell. I feel certain the error is mine, but could you clarify your comments?
By the way, another point to consider:
If God is changeless, then the way He feels about something now is the way He would always feel about it. Being eternal, if God feels indignation and displays His wrath now against sinners, then He will always feel that way about sin. 1 trillion years from now, God will feel the same about rebels as He does today.
There is no escape.
"But God commendeth His love towards us, in that,while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

The time to escape eternal retribution is now.

Julian of York

 

[Hentenza]

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28


The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death-eternal death. Only the righteous are promised life-eternal life.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11, 12.

Let me ask a question: Do those wicked ones in the lake of fire have the Son of God? Of course not. Then how could they have life? John says, "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15.

It is very simple to take verses out of context to justify an unbiblical pet doctrine. let me give you an example using Romans 6:23. The wages of sin are indeed death but what kind of death? Death entered the world though one sin, that one of Adam. The consequence of this sin by the federal head of mankind is physical death. God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge that he would die. Well he did, 900 years later. Paul also tells us that through one man's transgressions death entered the world but through another's man sacrifice grace abounds.

The death being spoken here is physical death not spiritual death. Secondly the bible is clear that man is not appointed to die more than once (see Hebrews 9) and then the judgment. The judgment is depicted in Rev. 20 where all that are not found written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire to suffer the SAME fate as the devil and his minions. This fate is eternal (day and night forever and ever).

You need to study scripture in context. Scripture never contradicts itself.

 

[gadesa]

Thx for the welcome

I fear that I am unable to follow your train of thought. It seems that your subject is "The Error of an eternal hell" and yet you give Scripture that Enforces a belief in an eternal hell. I feel certain the error is mine, but could you clarify your comments?

1)Jesus say we should fear the one that can destroy the body and soul in hell.How can the soul be destroyed if its eternal?

2) this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11, 12.
This verse stated that whoever does not have the Son hath not life.One cannot be immortal and be said to not have life.The word ‘immortal’ means ‘not subject to death’ but ‘living forever’ .

some more verses that talk about the mortality of the soul

Ezekiel 18: 4: “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die… (verse 20 repeats this fact)
20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21: But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

God alone has immortality
1 Timothy 6: 13: “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14: That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

o understand what the term ‘eternal fire’ means we will go to a Bible text which mentions ‘eternal fire.’
Jude 7: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
Genesis 19: 24: “Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25: And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.”
Genesis 9: 28: “And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.”
These verses tells us that the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed with ‘eternal fire.’ But is Sodom still burning? The obvious answer is: No it isn’t. It's fires went out centuries ago. A visit to the Dead Sea site of ancient Sodom and Gomorrha reveals no ‘ever-burning’ cities. Instead you will find an abundance of ash where once those evil cities stood. The ‘eternal fires’ have long since gone out. Only ash remains; a grim reminder that eternal annihilation awaits persistent sinners. In short, the flames weren't eternal but their effect was! That's what eternal fire means: ‘eternal destruction,’ ‘eternal annihilation’ and ‘eternal death.’

 

[James1979]

Gadesa,

Thank you for speaking truth! I also would like to add that Jesus who bear the sins of his people was under the same exact sentence as those who remained unsaved. It would be injustice for God to only allow Jesus to die in body and soul in hell which is the grave and not the unsaved sinners who have to spend an eternity in the lake of fire forevermore, but keep in mind that Jesus brought up his life again by the Holy Spirit and as it is recorded in the scriptures.

Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Ac 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And for the unsaved to spend in eternity in the lake of fire forevermore. Now let's question ourselves..who would've suffered the most, the Lord Jesus Christ or the unsaved sinners? In this theory, the unsaved would have to suffer more punishment than Jesus did. God would be injustice if he allow to this happen. God has integrity and he put the law above his name, showing how faithful he is to his own law. The penalty for sin is death and that goes for both parties, either through the Lord Jesus Christ or the unsaved people..no difference.

Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.


So basically when people died unsaved, they paid for their sins with their very life, dying in body and soul. They will never exist ever again (We came into this world as nonexistent creatures and we're checking out again from being existing creatures to nonexistent). This is the most frightening thing ever! I understand this is hard to digest and believe our God would do such a thing but its right from the scripture. Also there isn't gonna be a day where all the sinners gonna be standing in line to give an account for their sins. Because each time an unsaved sinner sins, its like the unsaved sinner is already standing before God every single time and God gives out the sentence to the sinner, death, death (Romans 6:23) every single time. It's just a matter of time when God pulls the plug on the unsaved sinner life, for the sentence to be carried out. I hope that helps to get a better understanding.

 

[James1979]

‪Hell is Not Eternal 4‬‏ - YouTube

Check this link out.

 

[Julian of York]

Thank you all for weighing in on this matter.
I do not have leisure to point out Scriptures at this time, but will get back to you.

Julian of York

 

[Astridhere]

Gadesa,

Thank you for speaking truth! I also would like to add that Jesus who bear the sins of his people was under the same exact sentence as those who remained unsaved. It would be injustice for God to only allow Jesus to die in body and soul in hell which is the grave and not the unsaved sinners who have to spend an eternity in the lake of fire forevermore, but keep in mind that Jesus brought up his life again by the Holy Spirit and as it is recorded in the scriptures.

Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Ac 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And for the unsaved to spend in eternity in the lake of fire forevermore. Now let's question ourselves..who would've suffered the most, the Lord Jesus Christ or the unsaved sinners? In this theory, the unsaved would have to suffer more punishment than Jesus did. God would be injustice if he allow to this happen. God has integrity and he put the law above his name, showing how faithful he is to his own law. The penalty for sin is death and that goes for both parties, either through the Lord Jesus Christ or the unsaved people..no difference.

Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.


So basically when people died unsaved, they paid for their sins with their very life, dying in body and soul. They will never exist ever again (We came into this world as nonexistent creatures and we're checking out again from being existing creatures to nonexistent). This is the most frightening thing ever! I understand this is hard to digest and believe our God would do such a thing but its right from the scripture. Also there isn't gonna be a day where all the sinners gonna be standing in line to give an account for their sins. Because each time an unsaved sinner sins, its like the unsaved sinner is already standing before God every single time and God gives out the sentence to the sinner, death, death (Romans 6:23) every single time. It's just a matter of time when God pulls the plug on the unsaved sinner life, for the sentence to be carried out. I hope that helps to get a better understanding.

Hi James1979

I am very interested in this subject also. I thought most Christian religions recanted eternal hellfire ages ago. Hellfire to me means eternal disconnection from God without hope of restoration. This is the weeping and gnashing of teeth and it is symbolic.

What confuses me about your reply is this:

If a person dies without accepting Jesus they die and go to the grave the same as one that has accepted Jesus. You say there is going to be a day that everyone is going to be standing in line to give account for their sins.

I do not understand why someone that has died without accepting Jesus sacrifice would be brought back in the first place, when the judgement of life or death is already known by God and Jesus. Is this just symbolic? Really if there is nothing one can do at the judgement to change the outcome why would someone be brought back just to hear they are going to eternally die. I do not understand.

Hebrews also speaks to man dying one time.

I also wonder what of those that died before Jesus sacrifice. Some saw Jesus with the eye of understanding, like Moses, I think it was. However most did not understand nor put their faith in Jesus as he had not come yet, and died long before Jesus was sacrificed. There is also a passage in the bible that says these did not get the 'fulfillment of the promise'. What promise was this?

I can clearly see from the scriptures those that accept Jesus go straight to heaven. I am unclear about the resurrection of the 'dead' on the last day. Does this mean the last day of their earthly life or the 'last day' in some other way?

I guess I thought we die and go to hades as all do. Those that do not die in Christ also go to Gehenna as they are judged as goats, not sheep. I always wondered if any other judgement refered to those that died prior to Jesus and will be judged a different way.

So, as you can see, I am still totally confused around this and hope to get more clarity as the thread moves on.

 

[St_Worm2]

I do not understand why someone that has died without accepting Jesus sacrifice would be brought back in the first place, when the judgement of life or death is already known by God and Jesus. Is this just symbolic? Really if there is nothing one can do at the judgement to change the outcome why would someone be brought back just to hear they are going to eternally die. I do not understand.

Hi Astridhere, you make a point that should be carefully considered by all those who believe in the annihilation of the reprobate. Why bring someone back to face the judgment of God only to then be cast into oblivion or non-existence again?

On the other hand, if Hell is a place of everlasting conscious punishment, the reprobate must have his/her day in Court! Can you imagine waking up from the grave to an eternal existence in Hell never knowing why you were sent there? Many will die not only believing they are on their way to Heaven, but that they deserve to be there (see Matthew 7:21-23). The books will be opened that all may be explained on that Day.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Astridhere]

Thanks DaLeko

I am having problems with new posts loading and can only see them when I hit the reply button so I cannot use the quote function. I'll take this to a help thread.

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I understand much will never be revealed in this life. I expect there is much we will never understand about spirit life which is probably incomprehensible to mankind anyway.

You mention the word 'reprobate' which has given me something to look up. Thankyou.

I actually think there are some teachings that are not meant to be clear for good reason.

Thanks again.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Gadesa, this topic gets beat to death on a weekly basis. No one changes their mind on the manner, it's a colosal waste of your time trying to convince people of your viewpoint. Just an FYI...

 

[gadesa]

i am not here to try to change people mind, but to share light

 

[sculleywr]

Gadesa,

Thank you for speaking truth! I also would like to add that Jesus who bear the sins of his people was under the same exact sentence as those who remained unsaved. It would be injustice for God to only allow Jesus to die in body and soul in hell which is the grave and not the unsaved sinners who have to spend an eternity in the lake of fire forevermore, but keep in mind that Jesus brought up his life again by the Holy Spirit and as it is recorded in the scriptures.

If Jesus suffered the same punishment as we men, and that punishment is the "destruction" of the soul, then Jesus would no longer be. This assumes that you are to be recreated, both body AND soul, and that the body and soul that you have was created imperfectly by a perfect God.

However, more importantly, and perhaps even scarier, this belief assumes a belief the early church identified as heresy is true: that Jesus is subservient to God in essence, or is not of the same essence as the other two persons of the Trinity.

However, both the council of Nicaea and the second council of Constantinople confirmed that all three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are of the same essence (homoeucia), or con-substantial with eachother. If Jesus was and is both fully God and fully man, there is no way in which He could share the same punishment with man if that punishment destroyed the soul, because one cannot destroy God, soul or body.