The Errant Origin of the Eucharist & for the Mass In Scripture

The last few years I've come to see the Lutherans (or at least the more historically-minded and confessional ones) as sort of the "German National Catholic Church" and less as "just another Protestant group".

knee-v said:

The last few years I've come to see the Lutherans (or at least the more historically-minded and confessional ones) as sort of the "German National Catholic Church" and less as "just another Protestant group".

Click to expand...

I think there's good reason for feeling that way, but then again...

this is the church that passed the basics of Protestantism--Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, not to mention the two sacraments of the Gospel--on to all other Protestants. To me, it's just the most traditional of the Protestant churches.

I continuously find it hilarious that Real Presence-deniers use, of all things, an Anglican translation of the Bible to defend their erroneous views...

PaladinValer said:

I continuously find it hilarious that Real Presence-deniers use, of all things, an Anglican translation of the Bible to defend their erroneous views...

Click to expand...

Don't you know your history? The KJV descended in clouds from God directly to the Apostle Paul.

knee-v said:

Don't you know your history? The KJV descended in clouds from God directly to the Apostle Paul.

Click to expand...

shhhh!

and don't let them know that we lost the Holy Chalice in one of the bloody wells in Glastonbury...

...crud...STRIKE THAT!

Albion said:

Well, I'm glad you wrote back. I was surprised at what I thought I was reading, that's for sure, so this clarification is worth having. At the same time, I do know a number of Lutherans who do talk like they are a branch of Catholicism and, therefore, much superior to those "Protestants" who are (I suppose) not liturgical or too emotional or something like that.

Click to expand...

Then we Lutherans have the post-1930, say, "modern-Lutherans" which are a different bunch than the pre-1930 non-modern Lutherans, the school which I plug into. Seems like God cannot even clean up this mess, or can He?

So here's what the fundies want us all to believe - that, besides their belief that Christ is Lord and Savior and a part of the Holy Trinity, the Catholics are Babylon and any Protestant church that does anything remotely Catholic must also be Catholic and bound to the pope.

Ya gotta love it. Thinking like this is why I don't think everybody should have the right to vote.

here's what the fundies want us all to believe - that...the Catholics are Babylon and any Protestant church that does anything remotely Catholic must also be Catholic and bound to the pope.

Click to expand...

Rather more typical of SDAs than fundies, I'd say, but yes, that idea is common.

knee-v said:

The last few years I've come to see the Lutherans (or at least the more historically-minded and confessional ones) as sort of the "German National Catholic Church" and less as "just another Protestant group".

Click to expand...

Only thing is that the German State Church is far from traditional or Confessional. There is, however, a remnant remaining in an independent Synod there, Selbständige Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche. We are in fellowship with them.

Albion said:

I think there's good reason for feeling that way, but then again...

this is the church that passed the basics of Protestantism--Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, not to mention the two sacraments of the Gospel--on to all other Protestants. To me, it's just the most traditional of the Protestant churches.

Click to expand...

Don't forget that this also greatly affected the development of the Anglican Church as well. More than a few historians have speculated that if the a number of important English Bishops had not been aware of what was happening in Germany, they would not have been as "primed" as they were for reformation when Henry VIII pushed.

I'm currently reading a book called: Prince, People, and Confession: The Second Reformation in Brandenburg by Bodo Nischan, Barbara J. Eckstein
This book, supported by vast notes and references shows that during the Confessional period at the beginning of the reformation, the Theologians and Princes in Northern Germany viewed Calvinism as a much greater threat than Rome. One quote has either Elector Jochim or his son Johan stating that the reformed were "ladeling up the sewage of Calvinism" with the intent of serving it up to Brandenburg.


Move ahead a few years to Elizabeth I who was no stranger to a more "liberal" Lutheran theology and practice, and she sought the assistance of Philipist Lutheran Theologians in the drafting of the 39 Articles.

PaladinValer said:

I continuously find it hilarious that Real Presence-deniers use, of all things, an Anglican translation of the Bible to defend their erroneous views...

Click to expand...

knee-v said:

Don't you know your history? The KJV descended in clouds from God directly to the Apostle Paul.

Click to expand...

...Some time after it was given to St. Paul, the British Parliament tore the Apocrypha from the bindings, and handed it to the Reformed Protestants.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

Don't forget that this also greatly affected the development of the Anglican Church as well. More than a few historians have speculated that if the a number of important English Bishops had not been aware of what was happening in Germany, they would not have been as "primed" as they were for reformation when Henry VIII pushed.

Click to expand...

I'm dubious about that theory. I accept that Lutheranism itself or Lutheran theologians influenced the English Reformers in a certain way, but when it came to putting down their beliefs on paper, as with the Articles, it was Calvin and Zwingli who came through more strongly.

Albion said:

I'm dubious about that theory. I accept that Lutheranism itself or Lutheran theologians influenced the English Reformers in a certain way, but when it came to putting down their beliefs on paper, as with the Articles, it was Calvin and Zwingli who came through more strongly.

Click to expand...

Calvinist today believe that water baptism as a sign, a pictorial representation, and a seal where "regeneration" occurs after, ie, not as a unit. Us non-modern Lutherans view "regeneration" and "water baptism" as a unit. Been a long time but think I'm in the ballpark. And You my friend Albion believe in another way. Don't be that concerned as when one passes on, they will immediate find out the one true genuine way.

Albion said:

I'm dubious about that theory. I accept that Lutheranism itself or Lutheran theologians influenced the English Reformers in a certain way, but when it came to putting down their beliefs on paper, as with the Articles, it was Calvin and Zwingli who came through more strongly.

Click to expand...

You certainly are correct that there is a strong Calvinist/Zwinglian tone to the 39 Articles. At the time of Henry VIII there was not much of a Calvinist influence, but there were English Bishops and Clergy that were interested and even sympathetic to Lutheranism. William Tyndale studied Hebrew in Germany and was himself greatly inspired by Luther.

The Calvinist/Zwinglian influence in the 39 Articles does not come directly from either Calvin or Zwingli, but Indirectly through Philipist Lutherans, those who chose to accept the alterations made to the 1580 edition of the Book of Concord which reflect the more "Christian Universalist" later writings of Philip Melanchthon.

The Anglican Church is now in fellowship with theological decendents of the Philipists; the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America, and their Canadian Counterpart, ELCIC; as they also are with the theological descendents of Calvin/Zwingli; the PCA.

There are a lot of stuff in the 39 articles which is almost verbatim from the Augsburg Confession; yet as a former Pastor of my once said; "If you read the 39 articles from a Lutheran perspective, you will see a Lutheran Document; if you read them from a Reformed perspective, you will see a Reformed Document.

It is for these reasons that there is little respect among Confessional Lutherans for Philip Melanchthon who's later works resulted in not only the almost complete destruction of Confessional Lutheranism through what we now call "The Crypto (hidden)-Calvinist Controversy"; and the ill-conceived "Peaces" and "Interims" Between the Lutherans and Rome.

One can speculate that had the Calvinist influence been kept out of Lutheranism, that history may have shown more of a mutual understanding between Lutheranism and Rome, rather than the mutual antagonism that marked European history for so many years. It was the stain of Calvinism that prevented any meaningful dialogue between Wittenburg, and that ultimately destroyed the good will between Brandenburg and Rome.

Mark and Shturt, thank you for those thoughtful replies. I suppose the best answer might be that there are substantial influences from both Lutheranism and Calvinism.

Albion said:

Mark and Shturt, thank you for those thoughtful replies. I suppose the best answer might be that there are substantial influences from both Lutheranism and Calvinism.

Click to expand...

Ol' old know it all me (lie #1) actually learned a lot from you and Mark, Great! Thank you Lord.

Albion said:

Mark and Shturt, thank you for those thoughtful replies. I suppose the best answer might be that there are substantial influences from both Lutheranism and Calvinism.

Click to expand...

shturt678 said:

Ol' old know it all me (lie #1) actually learned a lot from you and Mark, Great! Thank you Lord.

Click to expand...

It's good to be here, and we all learn so much! Thanks to both of you as well!

What do you guys think about what Dr. Scott Hahn says in this video? It's about 11 minutes long is all.

Keep in mind Christ as the Passover Lamb of the New Covenant.
...and at the original Passover, it was not only necessary to sacrifice the Lamb, but to actually eat it!

I find it both beautiful and amazing how the OT points to the NT, and how the NT fulfills the OT.

God bless.

youtube.com/watch?v=LQ3goNXz8Jg