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The Enoch Forum

Do you want a separate Forum where Enoch and his Books may be discussed?

  • Yes I want an Enoch Forum so Enoch doctrine is kept out of other Forums.

  • No I wand Enoch discussed in the Dispensational Forum


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Tychicum

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I recommend the creation of an entire forum just for the the discussion of Enoch and his Book or is that Books ... ?

As Enoch wasn't a dispensationalist ... and neither are his followers ... I would suggest it be given complete prominence under the Section Heading of Theology.

Something like:

Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Theology > Enochianity

All in favour vote yes ... and against vote no ... ?


.
 

yeshuasavedme

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How do you know Enoch wasn't a dispensationalist? When did you read to see for yourself exactly what 1 Enoch says?

Enoch is certainly not a Mid Acts Dispensationalist, and the writings of 1 Enoch do certainly refute the entire body of the doctrine of MAD and were certainly written before the New Testament and certainly thousands of years before MAD doctrine came into being.

Shooting the messenger eh?, but not refuting the message!

Merry Christmas, Tychicum! I have to go have a nice time with my extended family. Hope you have a wonderful warm and fuzzy celebration of remembrance of the coming into the world, in flesh, of the Good News to all men, Himself!

 
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lightninboy

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I voted for Enoch discussion in Dispensationalism, even if I'm not really into Jewish Kinsman theory.

I think that Enoch is an example of an Old Testament saint saved by grace through faith plus nothing. Thus you MADders are wrong.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I voted for Enoch discussion in Dispensationalism, even if I'm not really into Jewish Kinsman theory.

I think that Enoch is an example of an Old Testament saint saved by grace through faith plus nothing. Thus you MADders are wrong.
Hi!
Did you know that the word Kinsman is the same word as Redeemer?
When YHWH claims to be Redeemer He is saying He is the Kinsman who performs the legal ransom as Kinsman only can do.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Now that you have cleared that up ... now we know for sure how little you know about what is and what isn't a "dispensation" ... even the definition of what is dispensationalism. ^_^
Cleared up what?
And when are you going to read the book and see for yourself rather than continue trying to prop up MAD doctrine which is totally refuted by the prophet of God who wrote the wisdom of God and saw the Scripture of truth written on the tablets in heaven from which the angel told Daniel all that was to befall his people until the Messiah comes and restores all things.

Have you ever thought that you may have been deceived by a doctrine which is totally indefensible in the light of history and truth?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]NASB: "However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these [forces] except Michael your prince. (NASB ©1995)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
GWT: However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the true writings. No one will support me when I fight these commanders except your commander, Michael. (GOD'S WORD®)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
KJV: But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
ASV: But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

You have not read the writing in the Scripture of Truth or you would never hold to MAD doctrine which is totally refuted by the writing of the Scripture of Truth.

[/FONT]Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] You have not read the Wisdom of God to all Adamkind or you would not hold to the doctrine of MAD; if you had read the Truth you would blush at the shameful way MAD denies the Truth of the Son of Man/Son of God who was the Hidden One from the beginning, who was with God and was God, and was to come in human flesh of the second creation -and is come and was seen last of all by Paul, the least of His eyewitnesses to see Him in His glory and be sent as His witness, also.

[/FONT]
 
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Tychicum

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Cleared up what?
And when are you going to read the book and see for yourself rather than continue trying to prop up MAD doctrine which is totally refuted by the prophet of God who wrote the wisdom of God and saw the Scripture of truth written on the tablets in heaven from which the angel told Daniel all that was to befall his people until the Messiah comes and restores all things.

Neither the tablets/books by Joseph Smith nor books purportedly written by Enoch are accepted as Scripture by any serious theologian.

You are a one woman band.

I have read the Enoch books. No doubt they have truths.

But they have also have errors which disqualify them as a prophet.

They are a compilation of Jewish writings full stop. All sources I have read have declined their authorship as being Enoch himself.

Enoch lived several hundred years before Moses. Moses wrote the Penteteuch. The FIRST books of the Christian Bible.

The Jews who are the oracles of God ... the keepers of the Word of God ... do not include it ... or dozens of other apocrypha in the Scriptures.

Get some allies. Your credibility is stunted if you can not get the support of the serious theologians.

You should look into the study of Bibleology ... which books made it and why ...

Or maybe we could call the Enoch forum ... "Area 51" ... ^_^

.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Neither the tablets/books by Joseph Smith nor books purportedly written by Enoch are accepted as Scripture by any serious theologian.

You are a one woman band.

I have read the Enoch books. No doubt they have truths.

But they have also have errors which disqualify them as a prophet.

They are a compilation of Jewish writings full stop. All sources I have read have declined their authorship as being Enoch himself.

Enoch lived several hundred years before Moses. Moses wrote the Penteteuch. The FIRST books of the Christian Bible.

The Jews who are the oracles of God ... the keepers of the Word of God ... do not include it ... or dozens of other apocrypha in the Scriptures.

Get some allies. Your credibility is stunted if you can not get the support of the serious theologians.

You should look into the study of Bibleology ... which books made it and why ...

Or maybe we could call the Enoch forum ... "Area 51" ... ^_^

.
Tychicum, you are not being truthful in this because there is nothing in 1 Enoch which contradicts anything in the Old or New Testaments and it was writteen before the NEw Testament and personally, Job and Daniel and Isaiah and Revelation have much interconnecting passages with 1 Enoch.
The Jews banned 1 Enoch sometime in 200 AD because it is too Christian, as the doctrine of the Messiah,t he Christ, the Son of Man/Son of God who is the Son of God is the theme of Enoch's visions, who was to come but was from the beginning hid in God, concealed, kept secret.

You may compare your mid acts dispy books to Joseph Smiths, as both were products of modern men, but you may not do such shameful injustice to the book which the LORD quoted and also Peter, Paul, James, Jude and John quoted and used.

anyone familiar with the Old and New Testaments who is born again who reads 1 Enoch recognizes the many passages in 1 Enoch which are quoted in the New Testament and in the old.

That said;
Jesus Christ as the Word of God now come in flesh, who was from the beginning with God and was God, is the secret kept hidden, the bread from heaven, which is now concealed within each born again Believer.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden [krupto] manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Jhn 6:33For the bread of God [the secret manna] is he which cometh down from heaven
, and giveth life unto the world.
Jhn 6:34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Jhn 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48I am that bread of life.
"I am the [formerly kept secret] Manna"

Jhn 6:61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Jhn 6:62[What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Now This passage is a recognizing that the Christ is that particular Son of God told of in Enoch -the Apostles get it!

Jhn 6:69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

krupto {kroop'-to}

1) to hide, conceal, to be hid
2) escape notice
3) metaph. to conceal (that it may not become known)

AV - hide 11, hide (one's) self 2, keep secret 1, secretly 1,
hidden 1; 16


The word manna is from the word what? and the children of Israel called the bread from heaven manna, meaning the ‘whatness”?

The root word means:
1) what, how, of what kind
a) (interrogative)
1) what?
2) of what kind
3) what? (rhetorical)
4) whatsoever, whatever, what
b) (adverb)
1) how, how now
2) why
3) how! (exclamation)
c) (with prep)
1) wherein?, whereby?, wherewith?, by what means?
2) because of what?
3) the like of what?
a) how much?, how many?, how often?
b) for how long?
4) for what reason?, why?, to what purpose?
5) until when?, how long?, upon what?, wherefore?


1Pe 1:11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

If you are born again you have got the Word within which is the formerly secret Manna.
~~~~~
1Enoch has always been accepted Canon in the Ethiopian coptic Church. 1 Enoch totally refutes MAD doctrine.

1. Still, even at the end of the second century, Tertullian was of the opinion that the Book of Enoch must be included in the Old Testament; this book as well as the Apocalypse of Ezra, the Assumpsion of Moses and others were not only read by Jewish Christians, but had also penetrated to Gentile Christians, and were reverenced by them as books of revelation, as is proved by numerous quotations from these works (first and second centuries).
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/harnack/origin_nt.v.ii.html
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Get some serious theologian support.

And stating a whopper like your question as to why the books of Enoch are not dispensational doesn't help your credibility.


.
I asked you how you know Enoch is not dispensational -and I have support for my position: Jesus, James; Jude; John; Peter, and Paul; Daniel; Revelation; Isaiah; Job; and so on and so forth.

There are ten weeks of earth history alotted in one of the visions Enoch saw of the writing on the tablets in heaven. So how is that not dispensational?
He saw on the tablets written in heaven that there are appointed seasons for all that is to come before the regeneration of the heavens and the earth by the Messiah, the Son of Man/Son of God, and he saw that a law was to be made for sinners at a certain season and the Christ would arise from death and ascend.

from http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_5.HTM
And Enoch began to recount from the books and said:​
' I was born the seventh in the first week,​
While judgement and righteousness still endured.​

4 And after me there shall arise in the second week great wickedness,​
And deceit shall have sprung up;​
And in it there shall be the first end.​

And in it a man shall be saved;​
And after it is ended unrighteousness shall grow up,​
And a law shall be made for the sinners.​


And after that in the third week at its close​
A man shall be elected as the plant of righteous judgement,​
And his posterity shall become the plant of righteousness for evermore.​

6 And after that in the fourth week, at its close,​
Visions of the holy and righteous shall be seen,​
And a law for all generations and an enclosure shall be made for them.​

7 And after that in the fifth week, at its close,​
The house of glory and dominion shall be built for ever.​

8 And after that in the sixth week all who live in it shall be blinded,​
And the hearts of all of them shall godlessly forsake wisdom.​

And in it a man shall ascend;​
And at its close the house of dominion shall be burnt with fire,​
And the whole race of the chosen root shall be dispersed.​

9 And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise,​
And many shall be its deeds,​
And all its deeds shall be apostate.​

10 And at its close shall be elected​
The elect righteous of the eternal plant of righteousness,​
To receive sevenfold instruction concerning all His creation.


12 And after that there shall be another, the eighth week, that of righteousness,​
And a sword shall be given to it that a righteous judgement may be executed on the oppressors,​
And sinners shall be delivered into the hands of the righteous.​

13 And at its close they shall acquire houses through their righteousness,​
And a house shall be built for the Great King in glory for evermore,​
14d And all mankind shall look to the path of uprightness.​

14a And after that, in the ninth week, the righteous judgement shall be revealed to the whole world,​
b And all the works of the godless shall vanish from all the earth,​
c And the world shall be written down for destruction.​

15 And after this, in the tenth week in the seventh part,​
There shall be the great eternal judgement,​
In which He will execute vengeance amongst the angels.​

16 And the first heaven shall depart and pass away,​
And a new heaven shall appear,​
And all the powers of the heavens shall give sevenfold light.​

17 And after that there will be many weeks without number for ever,​
And all shall be in goodness and righteousness,​
And sin shall no more be mentioned for ever.​


 
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Tychicum

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I asked you how you know Enoch is not dispensational -and I have support for my position: Jesus, James; Jude; John; Peter, and Paul; Daniel; Revelation; Isaiah; Job; and so on and so forth.

There are ten weeks of earth history alotted in one of the visions Enoch saw of the writing on the tablets in heaven. So how is that not dispensational?
He saw on the tablets written in heaven that there are appointed seasons for all that is to come before the regeneration of the heavens and the earth by the Messiah, the Son of Man/Son of God, and he saw that a law was to be made for sinners at a certain season and the Christ would arise from death and ascend.

Your use of the word "dispensation" can not be stretched to include the 10 eras of the Books of Enoch. Because the proponents of dispensationalism who defined the word "dispensation" have decided to not include it.

It really is that simple.

I can not call a hill of dirt a chair ... as the word chair as defined by the authorities who created our language didn't include dirt in the definition. Dirt might be made to serve a similar purpose to a chair. But unless it is fashioned into the shape which characterizes what is classically called a chair ... it is not.

The periods of chastisement in Leviticus 26 are the same. They are periods described in Scripture ... and they define different "era". But they can not be called a dispensation.

.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Your use of the word "dispensation" can not be stretched to include the 10 eras of the Books of Enoch. Because the proponents of dispensationalism who defined the word "dispensation" have decided to not include it.

It really is that simple.

I can not call a hill of dirt a chair ... as the word chair as defined by the authorities who created our language didn't include dirt in the definition. Dirt might be made to serve a similar purpose to a chair. But unless it is fashioned into the shape which characterizes what is classically called a chair ... it is not.

The periods of chastisement in Leviticus 26 are the same. They are periods described in Scripture ... and they define different "era". But they can not be called a dispensation.

.
This 'dispensation' of the "fulness" of "times" is first described in Enoch.

Enoch saw the flood, the man chosen for the Name, the law made for sinners, the house for His glory, the falling away, the dispersion, the resurrection of the righteous One, Gentiles redemption, the resurrection of the dead in their seasons, and the reign of peace and the regeneration of the heavens and the earth.
Enoch was the first to see all that was to come in it's appointed season -even the great tribulation and the destruction and removal of all the wicked from the earth the second time.

Enoch saw the uniting of the Father and the Son with the righteous, when heaven comes down to earth. Enoch saw the City of God which He is preparing for the righteous, and the everlasting lake of fire and the punishment of the wicked and the rewards of the righteous -which all are appointed their proper seasons, or "times", to come; that is why the demons cried out to Jesus
"Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" -because Enoch had delivered the message of their doom to come in the appointed season from the "Great Glory" in heaven.

So what's left out?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Enoch out of the Bible canon.

Next you will be suggesting that Enoch was a Christian.

:wave:
Enoch is exactly the firstborn seed of the Living Spirit, a Christian, raised up to his father's name [Adam], according to the biblical law of Kinsman -read the living oracles committed to the nation of Israel [the namesake nation] and you will see the law of Kinsman and why Enoch was translated that he should not see death -as the firstborn seed of Christ, the ever-Living Spirit who is now come in human flesh [called Israel], of the second creation.
Enoch was born again before Abraham received the promise of new birth.

It wasn't left out of the Ethiopian Coptic canon. Rome banned it in the 400's as the Jews did in the 200's -reason for banning by the Jews? -Christ is the Messiah and obviously the Messiah of 1 Enoch who was to be revealed who is the Son of God: reason for banning by Rome -does it matter?
Ethiopia did not ban it.

and many of the early church 'fathers' read and quoted from it and accepted it as inspired: now if you would go read the history of the book you'd know all that, and if you read Scripture enough to be familiar with it's contents then read the book of 1 Enoch you see Enoch is the place where the doctrine of Messiah is fully developed as the Hidden in God, concealed, secret, Son of Man/Son of God who was to be revealed to the elect in His appointed season -and is Jesus Christ.
 
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SummaScriptura

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The poll is closed, so I can't vote.

But I think a Book of Enoch forum would be good.

For starters, I'd like to see an on-going thread in which people post parallels between the Old and New Testaments and TBOE.

We need a colaboration tool like a forum because Enochan studies are the most neglected area of Biblical research in the history of the Church!
 
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Terral

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Hi Tychicum:

I recommend the creation of an entire forum just for the the discussion of Enoch and his Book or is that Books ... ?

As Enoch wasn't a dispensationalist ... and neither are his followers ... I would suggest it be given complete prominence under the Section Heading of Theology.

Something like:

Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Theology > Enochianity

All in favour vote yes ... and against vote no ... ?

No! This is ridiculous. There are exactly 66 'canonized' books of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation (diagram) laid out in the exact pattern of the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (diagram) and that does NOT include any book of Enoch.

Think about posting that nonsense on your own website . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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SummaScriptura

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Hi Tychicum:



No! This is ridiculous. There are exactly 66 'canonized' books of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation (diagram) laid out in the exact pattern of the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (diagram) and that does NOT include any book of Enoch.

Think about posting that nonsense on your own website . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Fact: there is not now ONE and ONLY ONE canon of scripture recognized by Christians. There never has been one canon of scripture which was accepted by all Christians.

Where in the Bible does it say we need a canon, anyway?

Besides, what do the canons of scripture to which the various communions of Christians subscribe have to do with whether or not CF should open a Book of Enoch forum?
 
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SummaScriptura

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Enochan studies are growing in their underlying importance for understanding all things Biblical.

The biennial Enoch Seminars began in 2001. In the off years, the previous year's seminar articles are published. If one is able to wade through the problems of faith with which the writings of slavish adherents to the historical-critical methodology are replete, there may be much of interest there.

What: First Enoch Seminar
Where: Sesto Fiorentino, Florence, Italy
When: June 19-23, 2001
Subject: The Origins of Enochic Judaism
Publication: The Origins of Enochic Judaism
http://xoomer.alice.it/szamora/Origins.htm

What: Second Enoch Seminar
Where: Venice, Italy
When: July 1-4, 2003
Subject: Enoch and Qumran Origins
Publication: Enoch and Qumran Origins: New Light on a Forgotten Connection
http://www.amazon.com/Enoch-Qumran-Origins-Forgotten-Connection/dp/0802828787

What: Third Enoch Seminar
Where: Camaldoni, Arezzo, Italy
When: June 6-20, 2005
Subject: The Parables of Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man
Publication: Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man: Revisiting the Book of Parables
http://www.amazon.com/Enoch-Messiah-Son-Man-Revisiting/dp/0802803776

What: Fourth Enoch Seminar
Where: Camaldoli-Arezzo-Ravenna
When: July 8-12, 2007
Subject: Enoch and the Mosaic Torah (with special emphasis on the Book of Jubilees)
http://www.nd.edu/~thanneke/es/

What: Fifth Enoch Seminar
Where: TBA
When: Summer, 2009
Subject: The Legacy of Enochic Judaism.
 
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