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May seem off-topic, but I don't think so: God spoke the universe into existence. The Word is literally The Creator.Do you think any of this indicates that Jesus is speech, the Word of God?
It seems he is the Word who is God, not the Word of God, as is Scripture.
I do not find the Incarnate Word (Jn 1:14) presented in the NT as the Word of God, i.e., speech, but presented as the Word who is God; i.e., person (Jn 1:14).Yeap. I will add that to the listing.
The Incarnate word. Geez....
And then there is the logos of Greek philosophy, the Greeks being to whom John is appealing.May seem off-topic, but I don't think so: God spoke the universe into existence. The Word is literally The Creator.
Might be a riddle or play on words, or something, I don't know, but a poetic look at things may work better than cold logic here, for us, being short on facts.
I made three distinctions in post #12. I noticed you didn't use def #2 here. Are you denying the inscripturated Word is the Word of God? Geez....mellow out.
Chapter and verse please. I have never heard of this before...."the Great Intelligence and Reason (with capital R)"....sounds like Thomas Jefferson's Deism. Where does Scripture say the Word was the first cause? Where does Scripture say the Word is "R"eason? Chapter and verse please?And that logos was the First Cause, the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe,
Because my question is in regard to Jesus, not in regard to Scripture.I made three distinctions in post #12. I noticed you didn't use def #2 here.
No, I am asking where do we find Jesus specifically presented as "the Word of God" in the NT,Are you denying the inscripturated Word is the Word of God? Geez....mellow out.
Chapter and verse please. I have never heard of this before...."the Great Intelligence and Reason (with capital R)"....sounds like Thomas Jefferson's Deism. Where does Scripture say the Word was the first cause? Where does Scripture say the Word is "R"eason? Chapter and verse please?And that logos was the First Cause, the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe,
It's from Greek philosophy, the Greeks being to whom John was appealing in his gospel.REPOST
Chapter and verse please. I have never heard of this before...."
the Great Intelligence and Reason (with capital R)"....sounds like Thomas Jefferson's Deism. Where does Scripture say the Word was the first cause? Where does Scripture say the Word is "R"eason? Chapter and verse please?
I am out of this conversation.It's from Greek philosophy, the Greeks being to whom John was appealing in his gospel.
I'm asking about the whole NT. Do we find specifically "Word of God" referring to Jesus?
Jesus is not the Word of God in Jn 1:1-18, he is the Word who is God (Jn 1:1, 14).
I am asking about NT texts. . .where do we find "Word of God" referring to Jesus in the NT didactics?Does the Logos have a Source? Is He of Someone? Who might He be of?
The New Testament provides you plenty to work with there. And the Nicene Creed makes it explicit as can be.
-CryptoLutheran
I am asking about NT texts. . .where do we find "Word of God" referring to Jesus in the NT didactics?
Jesus is the Word who is God (Jn 1:1, 14).
Revelation is not didactics, it is prophecy given in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8).Revelation 19:13
ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ
Is this sufficient?
-CryptoLutheran
Revelation is not didactics, it is prophecy given in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8).
In the NT apostolic teaching, Jesus is the Word who is God (Jn 1:1, 14).Well I got nothin.
At any rate, Jesus is the Word of God.
-CryptoLutheran
My problem in relation to this, if it is a problem, is the tendency to consider the whole business, from God's purpose to create to the consummation of his work, (when we see Him as He is), in Heaven, as Gospel. I guess that could be called 'Expansionism'?Within Lutheranism we have a problem with "Gospel Reductionism." Basically it’s the tendency to reduce the Bible to the gospel. Gospel reductionism tends to allow the Bible authority only in matters which are explicitly part of the gospel or may be developed from the gospel. Hence the law is dismissed. Exponents of gospel reductionism believe that considerable freedom should be allowed within the church in matters which are not an explicit part of the gospel. In this way, the rest of the Bible is relativistic; it does not have the same authority as Scripture containing both Law and Gospel. By only holding to the Gospel, the Law has no meaning for Christian living and amoral behaviors become norm in the church. We see this within the ELCA.
Note: This listing of verses as taken me a few years to gather. When I find an appropriate verse I just add it to the listing.
God's holy inspired Word has several characteristics that guarantee powerful results. First, it is infused with the power of the Holy Spirit. Second, God's word is truth. It awakens our conscience. With the power to reach into the private corners of our hearts, the Word bares our motives and secret feelings and reveals our hidden longings. Third, God's Word discerns our true character. It exposes the weakness in our attitudes and conduct, enabling us to correct ourselves by the power of His Holy Spirit.
(1) The Word is always powerful to save in itself;
(2) The Spirit is always at work through the Word; it is perpetual union. There is no Spiritless Word.
The Spirit through the Word as his instrument is the efficient cause our conversion and of all spiritual activity in man. The Spirit is the power behind the proclaimed Word. When we speak about the Word as a means of grace, we mean that the Spirit uses the Word as a vehicle of his presence and power. Spirit and Word must be understood in relation to one another. The work of the Spirit and the Word are interwoven so much so that it is hard to distinguish where one ends and the other begins.
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I Thes 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;
I Corinthians 2:3-5 I also was with you in weakness and fear, and in great trembling and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of mankind, but on the power of God.
I Thes 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the Word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the Word.
Galatians 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith--
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Luke 1:37 “For no Word from God will ever fail” (NIV) or “Nothing is impossible with God” (NASB)
Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Ephesians 1:13 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in who also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”
1 Peter 1:23-25 ...since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding Word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord remains forever." And this Word is the good news that was preached to you.
John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive;
Is 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 So will My Word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have Words of eternal life.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the Words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your Word is truth.
Duet 8:3 He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.
John 15:3-5 Already you are clean because of the Word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Matthew 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
2 Corinthians 2:14-17 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.
James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the Word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:23-25 ...since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding Word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord remains forever." And this Word is the good news that was preached to you.
Psalm 33:6 By the Word of the Lord the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
I Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.
Philippians 2:16 holding fast the Word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
I John 2:5 but whoever keeps His Word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
John 12:48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the Word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
2 Thessalonians 2:13–14 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as first fruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ezekiel 12:25-28 For I the Lord will speak, and whatever Word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in your days, O rebellious house, I will speak the Word and perform it,” declares the Lord God.’” 26 Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 27 “Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ 28 Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “None of My Words will be delayed any longer. Whatever Word I speak will be performed,”’” declares the Lord God.
James 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the Word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
John 4:39-42 From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the Word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”
John 20:30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Jeremiah 1:12 Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”
Lamentations 2:17 The Lord has done what He purposed; He has accomplished His Word
which He commanded from days of old. He has thrown down without sparing,
And He has caused the enemy to rejoice over you; He has exalted the might of your adversaries.
Proverbs 4:20-22 My son, give attention to my Words; Incline your ear to my sayings.
21 Do not let them depart from your sight; Keep them in the midst of your heart.
22 For they are life to those who find them; And health to all their body.
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The Word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 4:17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
2 Timothy 4:1 begins with these words. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word.”
.Matthew 4:4 “Man shall not live by bread alone but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”
Indeed, the efficacy of the Incarnate Son and Word of God, Jesus Christ, and of those scriptures which depict him as a verbal icon and are therefore the written Word, inspired by God, cannot be disputed. The Holy Spirit inspired the evangelists to record the life of Christ, either from their memory in the case of St. Matthew and St. John, or primarily from the recollections of the other apostles in the case of St. Mark and St. Luke (although it is traditionally believed, including by myself, that St. Mark owned the house with the Cenacle, and St. Luke was among the Seventy).
This is why I reject attempts by liberal denominations to teach things contrary to what is contained within scripture, for example, that homosexual relations are not sinful, to the extent of posing a threat to salvation. Or that Jesus Christ was not actually God Incarnate in the person of the Son and Logos, but a mere man. Or other doctrines which contradict the canonical New Testament as defined by the 27 book Athanasian Canon.
As two of you, at least, probably know, I find a huge play on words, or pun, here in this subject. I look forward, with a huge grin on my face, to the resolution of this riddle when we see Him at last. As concerning most questions we would ask of him, I think the answer will be right before our faces and we will be amazed that we didn't see it all along.Do we find Jesus referred to as "the Word of God" (speech) in the NT didactics?
Granted. . .butAs two of you, at least, probably know, I find a huge play on words, or pun, here in this subject. I look forward, with a huge grin on my face, to the resolution of this riddle when we see Him at last. As concerning most questions we would ask of him, I think the answer will be right before our faces and we will be amazed that we didn't see it all along.
Volumes could be written on the two subjects —no, three— the Spoken Word, the Written Word and the literal vs symbolic nature of this vapor of existence vs. 'the real' that is to come.
But witness how we attribute authority to anything said by someone we esteem to, at least, be in the position to know, and particularly to give authority to what is written in an article or book, as though their notions are to be inculcated or emulated.
(An aside, for an example of the above: I'm a missionary kid, and I noticed as a child, even, what seems to me to this day a mockery of Christendom, that Christians do, themselves, because when my family came to the States on deputation every 5 years, I'd see some new focus in the churches and their teaching, that, upon returning to my birth country, would show up 'down there' 3 to 4 years later, as The Better Way to Understand Scripture and Life. "...who steal from one another words supposedly from me". Another example is the many wives who accept —and even think that others, including their husbands, should accept— what is written in a book over whatever their own husbands think, almost as though what is written was next thing to the Scriptures themselves. "NO! This man really KNOWS! He has a following! He's a good speaker! He even wrote a book on it!")
Thank you. Yes! I had started out to mention that the Speaking was not the same as what is spoken into being, but I missed the train. If I'm not wrong, {God speaking the universe into existence} was {The Son of God creating}.Granted. . .but
in the context of the philosophy of the Greeks whom John is addressing (where logos is the First Cause, etc.), and
in light of the phrase "Word of God" not being used in NT teaching to refer to Jesus,
do we have warrant for "the Word" meaning speech in Jn 1:1, rather than the First Cause, the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe?
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