The duration of hell and its purpose

ozso · Jul 6, 2022

So basically there's the Old Testament which hardly says anything about afterlife punishment. Then there's the New Testament where outside of Revelation, mention of afterlife punishment is almost entirely contained in the four Gospels. The question is was Jesus talking about the final fate of unbelieving mankind (mostly gentils), or was he talking about the fate of Israel within a generation of him saying those things.

wendykvw · Jul 6, 2022

Daniel9v9 said:
Romans 5:15 does not say that whoever rejects Christ is saved, but that Christ died for all. In other words, He is the Lamb of God who take away the sin of the world. So, salvation is won for us on the cross, but it is delivered to us by means of God's Word. So it is universally won, but given to us through means, and those means can be resisted.

What you've described here, the tension between Arminianism and Calvinism, is found among the Reformed and their daughter bodies, but it doesn't exist in other theological frameworks, such as the Lutheran one that I hold to.

If we read Romans in its entirety (and really, every Bible passage in context), it's very clear that salvation is only found through faith in Jesus. It makes no assertions that there is sin in the resurrection nor that it's possible to repent from sin then. On the contrary, it only knows of two ways: one of life in Christ, and one of death apart from Christ. This is the overwhelming message of the entire Bible.

Again, when we reflect on everything the Scriptures say about damnation, it's good to ask ourselves (to rephrase a bit): Does God's Word anywhere say that whoever rejects Jesus in this life will still have life in Him? Not only does it not, but it very explicitly says the opposite — that whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned already. Mark 16:16, John 3:18.

You are implying that if someone does not agree with your interpretation they are taking passages out of context. This is in essence claiming superior knowledge and infallibility. I am of the opinion that the only "human" who would fit that category was Christ, who was God in the flesh. I will never claim to have that type of knowledge, but I can explain my position and that which Early Church Fathers also believed.

So how many died in Adam? Everyone. How many will be made alive in Christ? Everyone. It is the same group .“ Some are being made alive now (those who have placed faith in Christ" then, those in the age to come.

"For as in Adam all die, so in, Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:22-28

Anyone without a theological predisposition will understand that the major theme of this portion of Paul’s letter is that the population of those condemned by Adam’s sin is the same population that will be justified by Christ’s work. (So then as through one transgression there resulted in condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted in the justification of life to all men. – Romans 5:18). If Paul means what he seems to be saying, then the universalistic implications are difficult to ignore.

Here is the problem if your view is correct, Lucifer deceived Adam and the entire world is under condemnation. According to your view, one must find the denomination that is interpreting bible verses in context, but there are thousands of branches of Christianity. Fallen mankind has no hope if they join the wrong congregation, and the sacrifice Christ made is null and void unless you figure it out in time before you die. In the meantime, millions across the world have no bible, and a missionary has not visited their location. To be exact 4,000 locations around the world do not have a Bible translated into their language. They die without any explicit knowledge of Christ, now according to your view, they are in hell forever in torment. Where is the good news?

wendykvw · Jul 6, 2022

sawdust said:
Yes, judgment on the wicked and those who transgressed against the Lord are destroyed. Those who are redeemed can see their dead bodies. Isaiah is speaking of the Second Coming when the Lord will restore Israel and usher in the Millennium but it is also descriptive of the final judgement. The wicked will be destroyed, thrown into the lake of fire.

1Cor.3:12 has nothing to do with the destruction of the wicked.

I assume your position is annihilation? vs 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved.

The restoration position is wickedness will be destroyed not the person. Christ is victorious because he restores what the devil destroyed.

wendykvw · Jul 6, 2022

MMXX said:
So basically there's the Old Testament which hardly says anything about afterlife punishment. Then there's the New Testament where outside of Revelation, mention of afterlife punishment is almost entirely contained in the four Gospels. The question is was Jesus talking about the final fate of unbelieving mankind (mostly gentils), or was he talking about the fate of Israel within a generation of him saying those things.

Good question. Also, have you noticed in the Gospels, that the religious leaders of Israel were not happy Christ desired to redeem gentile nations? Remind you or anything particular today among Christianity?
The same attitude as the prodigal's brother, as well.

wendykvw · Jul 6, 2022

dqhall said:
Jesus taught a parable about wheat and tares. The tares were weeds with inedible seed. Some scholars thought it might be the bearded darnel. The farmer was shown the tares growing among the wheat. He did not order his workers to uproot the weeds as this might also uproot the wheat. During the harvest they were instructed to separate the wheat from the weeds, to gather the grain into his storage facility and to burn the weeds. The wheat grains were likened to righteous people and the tares were like the wicked. Not all will be saved.

Some church leaders do not trust Revelation. The Greek Orthodox do not allow it to be read aloud in their church service. I learned this from a Greek Orthodox member in CF and checked it online. They do not use Revelation in their liturgy.

Eusebius supervised the preparation of Bibles for Emperor Constantine. He wrote a history of the early church, Ecclesiastical History, c. 325 AD. He wrote about some early church leaders objecting to the book Revelation. They stated it was not written by the Apostle John, but it was forged.

Restoration does not deny that there will be those who will need the purifying fire to remove wickedness. Because God is full of love and grace, the final outcome will be a celebration.

“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like launderer’s soap [which removes impurities and uncleanness]." Mal 3:2

“[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.”

~Ephesians 1:10

sawdust · Jul 6, 2022

wendykvw said:
I assume your position is annihilation? vs 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved.

The restoration position is wickedness will be destroyed not the person. Christ is victorious because he restores what the devil destroyed.

But it is the person who becomes wicked through their rejection of God. It's why they do wicked things. If you think in terms of evil continually you become evil. Lucifer didn't start off evil, he became that way through his constant refusal to be corrected. It is the same with men. It's the old story, "you are what you eat". Eat of the bread from heaven and you become Christ like. Eat of the devil's lies and you become wicked as he is wicked.

Prov.23:7 As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

Whether those in the lake of fire will cease to exist at some stage, I don't know. I only know for certain they will not be getting out. The problem with the wicked is, once you have burnt away all the wickedness there is nothing left to redeem.

Those who go into the lake of fire have zero faith. They are still spiritually dead. It is impossible for the spiritually dead to comprehend spiritual matters and the Lord said to them (effectively) "get lost" and will have nothing to do with them so how can they be redeemed? They can't. Fire does not add anything to the mix, it only destroys what is worthless.

The 1 Cor.3 passage you keep quoting has to do with believers. They at least have the measure of faith that saves ie. faith in the Gospel. Even if every thing they do after being saved is worthless, they will still be glorified with a spiritual body although minus any rewards of power.

Grace is given to men in this life only. After that comes judgment.

Daniel9v9 · Jul 6, 2022

wendykvw said:
You are implying that if someone does not agree with your interpretation they are taking passages out of context. This is in essence claiming superior knowledge and infallibility. I am of the opinion that the only "human" who would fit that category was Christ, who was God in the flesh. I will never claim to have that type of knowledge, but I can explain my position and that which Early Church Fathers also believed.

So how many died in Adam? Everyone. How many will be made alive in Christ? Everyone. It is the same group .“ Some are being made alive now (those who have placed faith in Christ" then, those in the age to come.

"For as in Adam all die, so in, Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:22-28

Anyone without a theological predisposition will understand that the major theme of this portion of Paul’s letter is that the population of those condemned by Adam’s sin is the same population that will be justified by Christ’s work. (So then as through one transgression there resulted in condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted in the justification of life to all men. – Romans 5:18). If Paul means what he seems to be saying, then the universalistic implications are difficult to ignore.

Here is the problem if your view is correct, Lucifer deceived Adam and the entire world is under condemnation. According to your view, one must find the denomination that is interpreting bible verses in context, but there are thousands of branches of Christianity. Fallen mankind has no hope if they join the wrong congregation, and the sacrifice Christ made is null and void unless you figure it out in time before you die. In the meantime, millions across the world have no bible, and a missionary has not visited their location. To be exact 4,000 locations around the world do not have a Bible translated into their language. They die without any explicit knowledge of Christ, now according to your view, they are in hell forever in torment. Where is the good news?

I regret to say there's a lot of confusion in what you write. What I hold, in short, is that whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. This is not my personal interpretation, but what Mark 16:16 reads. It's a great summary of salvation and damnation and how it corresponds to God's grace and His gift of faith and baptism.

ozso · Jul 6, 2022

Most everything one wants to know about hell is covered in this objective lecture.

wendykvw · Jul 6, 2022

Daniel9v9 said:
I regret to say there's a lot of confusion in what you write. What I hold, in short, is that whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. This is not my personal interpretation, but what Mark 16:16 reads. It's a great summary of salvation and damnation and how it corresponds to God's grace and His gift of faith and baptism.

The Greek word condemned in Mark 16:16 is κατακριθήσεται
Strong's 2632: To condemn, judge worthy of punishment. From kata and krino; to judge against, i.e. Sentence.

Restoration does not deny judgment or punishment. All people will be judged. God determines punishment. The gospels speak of degrees of punishment. Luke 12:45,46. Jesus takes it a step further and warns those who serve Him, even believers can be assigned a punishment with "unbelievers".

wendykvw · Jul 6, 2022

sawdust said:
But it is the person who becomes wicked through their rejection of God. It's why they do wicked things. If you think in terms of evil continually you become evil. Lucifer didn't start off evil, he became that way through his constant refusal to be corrected. It is the same with men. It's the old story, "you are what you eat". Eat of the bread from heaven and you become Christ like. Eat of the devil's lies and you become wicked as he is wicked.

Prov.23:7 As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

Whether those in the lake of fire will cease to exist at some stage, I don't know. I only know for certain they will not be getting out. The problem with the wicked is, once you have burnt away all the wickedness there is nothing left to redeem.

Those who go into the lake of fire have zero faith. They are still spiritually dead. It is impossible for the spiritually dead to comprehend spiritual matters and the Lord said to them (effectively) "get lost" and will have nothing to do with them so how can they be redeemed? They can't. Fire does not add anything to the mix, it only destroys what is worthless.

The 1 Cor.3 passage you keep quoting has to do with believers. They at least have the measure of faith that saves ie. faith in the Gospel. Even if every thing they do after being saved is worthless, they will still be glorified with a spiritual body although minus any rewards of power.

Grace is given to men in this life only. After that comes judgment.

Your interpretation is based on the model you believe. You are qualifying the verse in 1 Corinthians to fit your model of interpretation. The Jewish nation had the same objection that you have. They rejected such an idea God would redeem all nations of people.

ozso · Jul 6, 2022

This is interesting.

Traditional Judaism teaches that after death our bodies go to the grave but our souls go before God to be judged. God, as He states in Scripture, is the only one who knows our motives as well as our works—God sees the heart, whereas man looks at the outside (1Samuel 16:7). Facing the only true Judge, we are assigned a place in heaven according to a merit system based on God’s accounting of all our actions and motives. Traditional Jewish thought is that only the very righteous go directly to heaven; all others must be cleansed of residual sin.

According to traditional Judaism, sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom (also spelled Gehinom and Gehenna).

Do Jews believe in hell? | GotQuestions.org

wendykvw · Jul 6, 2022

MMXX said:
This is interesting.

Traditional Judaism teaches that after death our bodies go to the grave but our souls go before God to be judged. God, as He states in Scripture, is the only one who knows our motives as well as our works—God sees the heart, whereas man looks at the outside (1Samuel 16:7). Facing the only true Judge, we are assigned a place in heaven according to a merit system based on God’s accounting of all our actions and motives. Traditional Jewish thought is that only the very righteous go directly to heaven; all others must be cleansed of residual sin.

According to traditional Judaism, sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom (also spelled Gehinom and Gehenna).

Do Jews believe in hell? | GotQuestions.org

Exactly, the Jewish prayer for kaddish is 12 months. These prayers are to help deceased love ones as they are purified in what we know as Gehenna.

ozso · Jul 6, 2022

wendykvw said:
Exactly, the Jewish prayer for kaddish is 12 months. These prayers are to help deceased love ones as they are purified in what we know as Gehenna.

I've heard that several times before over the years. And not always from anything UR related. Like the article I posted.

ozso · Jul 6, 2022

Der Alte said:
Please see my post #2, above.
My ¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter

So when did the traditional Jewish view of Hell go from eternal torment, to Hell being a place of purification exactly the same as Christian universalism teaches?

Daniel9v9 · Jul 6, 2022

wendykvw said:
The Greek word condemned in Mark 16:16 is κατακριθήσεται
Strong's 2632: To condemn, judge worthy of punishment. From kata and krino; to judge against, i.e. Sentence.

Restoration does not deny judgment or punishment. All people will be judged. God determines punishment. The gospels speak of degrees of punishment. Luke 12:45,46. Jesus takes it a step further and warns those who serve Him, even believers can be assigned a punishment with "unbelievers".

Five questions:

1. Can you show me a passage from the Bible that says that repentance is possible in the resurrection? Is there any verse that you can with a clear conscience tell a person who hates and rejects our Lord that he will still have the opportunity to repent after he dies? Consider for example this in context of what our Lord says regarding the unpardonable sin and the Biblical language of being blotted out of the book of life. None of the apostles preach like this.

2. Do you believe Satan will be saved?

3. Why do you believe that salvation is eternal and damnation not when both are referred to in the same way? The fact that there is a direct contrast, along with everything else Scripture says indicate only two permanent states.

4. Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world. But if someone should reject that grace, as many do, what hope is there?

5. Why is the restoration aspect absent from clear passages such as Mark 16:16 and our Lord’s story of Lazarus and the rich man?

Cockcrow · Jul 6, 2022

Hell is eternal and it is made for the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.

Cockcrow · Jul 6, 2022

I don't like the use of the word forever, that implies that there will be an end to the punishment which is not biblical. the Bible says eternal punishment not forever punishment.

Der Alte · Jul 6, 2022

dqhall said:
Jesus said, “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.” Luke 21:33 (KJV)
If earth and the solar system will not last forever, will hell also perish?
Some of people’s misconceptions about life after death may have come from Greek, Roman or other mythology and literature such as Dante’s Inferno.

I have found that actually reading the Bible helps us understand it better. About the earth not lasting forever.

Revelation 21:1
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Verse 4 no more death. Vs 5 all things new.

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But in vs. 8, eight groups of people thrown into the lake of fire which is still the second death.
As for "Some of people’s misconceptions about life after death may have come from Greek, Roman or other mythology and literature such as Dante’s Inferno." See my posts #2, #7 and #8 this thread, above for the actual source of hell..

ozso · Jul 6, 2022

Cockalorum said:
I don't like the use of the word forever, that implies that there will be an end to the punishment which is not biblical. the Bible says eternal punishment not forever punishment.

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Davy · Jul 6, 2022

wendykvw said:
From the earliest days of the church, there have always been three views on what happens to those who die without knowing Christ...damnation, annihilation, and restoration.

Damnation views hell as retributive punishment and the duration is eternal without end.

Annihilation has an end at some point and destroys evil to ashes. Those of this view may expand further.

The restoration view teaches that hell is medicinal and temporal with an outcome of celebration, restored to their creator.

Explain your view and the duration and how you came to that conclusion.

The following verses are the 'bottom line' about the destiny of the abode of the wicked called "hell" (Hades).

Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Process of elimination -- no more death, and death cast into the future "lake of fire" means annihilation. Otherwise, death would not actually be destroyed and no more.

If death is annihilated in the future "lake of fire", then so is the abode of the wicked called "hell", since it is also cast into that "lake of fire" along with death.

The duration of hell and its purpose

What is the duration of hell?

Forever

Temporary

Other

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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