The Drake equation... More than likely a race that is beyond this dimension we know...

Neogaia777 said:

K, 2 in 200 billion, per galaxy... And "how many" galaxies are there...? Trillions, right...? You do the math...

If you don't believe and exclusive creation by a God, and you believe the "other", then there should be many, many, "more" species and planets capable of supporting intelligent life, and having intelligent life on them, just in our own galaxy alone...

Then multiply that times the trillions of galaxies...? Again, you do the math and consider "what kind" and types and levels of life there should be...

God Bless!

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The problem with that concept is that many of these planets are just lifeless smoldering rocks. In fact, in our solar system alone we only have one that seems specifically designed for life sustaining purposes-our Earth.

Then we are presented, for some reason, with another of equal size Venus, where it rains sulfuric acid, is a veritable lead-smelting oven and where the atmospheric pressure can crush you.

Then when we peer beyond our locality, we discover planets in other solar systems which alternate between frozen wastelands and a blazing infernos due to their extremely elliptical orbits. The motive or reason for all this naturally arises unless one is brain dead.

BTW

This is not to discount a creator. This is simply asking for the why for all the seeming wastage and what appears to be chaos. A degenerate universe caused by Adamic sin?

Neogaia777 said:

The Drake equation... More than likely a race that is beyond this dimension we know...

The Drake equation from Wiki: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiH7qHn2P_RAhVOx2MKHSK9Dh0QFghPMAw&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation&usg=AFQjCNGe27D0f6hSH4TIfoEZ8W39WCLoVw&sig2=bBYq2udjpA3sotBCeaZfkA&bvm=bv.146094739,d.cGc

Even if there is only one other planet in our galaxy, (though it proposes between 1000 at the minimum and 100,000 maximum), even if there was only one or two, like us or once like us (and is now further than us) Anyhow, if there were only one or two in our galaxy, there are trillions of galaxies, meaning, well, you do the math, how many civilizations like or once like us...?

Say there are or were trillions, since there are trillions of galaxies, how far did they get... I'll get to my point... My point is, at least one of them had to go beyond this realm, this dimension, into perhaps a matterless, timeless, and a place where space, time, and distance and matter and material as we know it does not matter, so to speak...

The odds are totally in favor of it, mathematically speaking...

Anyone disagree...?

Comments...?

Maybe they gave rise to A.I., maybe they exist in another dimension or type of reality now, maybe they've existed before this entire universe was, and this universe is like a computer program, that uses biological machines, (bioelectrochemical) and this is all a simulation created by and managed by them...

Consider the possibilities...

God Bless!

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It is possible that the universe is permeated with life. Although, I don't believe it.

I appreciate the mathematics of the Drake equation, and I remember theoretical physicists on the Star Trek payroll revising their "equations" as they saw fit - meticulous work. I can certainly entertain the idea, philosophically. A point I will get to in a moment that coues my actual feelings on the issue.

I believe in primes, and that perhaps we are literally the first fruits of the universe. It is possible that God created the universe entirely for us - in that, perhaps 10,000s of years into our future as perfection, we can actually explore our "neighborhood," and even (if called,) Judge and have dominion over some of them.

In other words, the heavens are awating us.

If there are other intelligent species out there, then consider ur crude philosophical alignment toward "primative" species and planets. We should NOT be seeing UFOs, there should be no talk of abduction, or reverse engineering of technology if these entities were good.

That is, what responsible warp based society would purposefully interfere with the trajectory of the evolution of a primatige, pre-warp society - especially in secret, and to "deserving folks"? Stories of "gods" and highly advanced civilizations on Earth have some truth to them.

So, if the heavens are permeated with life (as opposed to dimensions being permeated with entities,) then the entities that have messed with human history are likely the "bad ones."

And, "bad ones" can seem good; Captain Kirk is one of the most irresponsible warp society Terrans ever, for example.

The "good ones" - to extend the metaphor - usually have the attached romanticism of helping a race for their betterment, and usually come to a race as one of their own, or on behalf of someone who the race (should) know is for their complete betterment.

I've always had an issue with the Prime Directive concept. Sure, you can see it as not interfering with our development, but the technology and power it takes to travel between the stars could be used to solve many of the energy, material and pollution issues facing humanity.

Unless we are seen as non sentient animals by comparison, it seems preposterously cruel to not help us through the suffering we've got ourselves into.

Neogaia777 said:

Maybe one day if they exist, they plan to, but, at the right time...

The Prime directive is very controversial, so, it hard to know which way a more advanced race (they) would go with it...?

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Personally I doubt they exist... but I've yet to be presented with a truly convincing solution to the Fermi paradox.

Shemjaza said:

I've always had an issue with the Prime Directive concept. Sure, you can see it as not interfering with our development, but the technology and power it takes to travel between the stars could be used to solve many of the energy, material and pollution issues facing humanity.

Unless we are seen as non sentient animals by comparison, it seems preposterously cruel to not help us through the suffering we've got ourselves into.

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You are absolutely right about the cruelty. Just philosophically entertaining the "alien" concept, and then entertaining the stories and fears other humans have experienced - putting it all together paints nothing but a cruel picture of whatever "advanced peri/post warp civilization" has visited.

The Prime Directive is supposed to protect both the advanced and civilized races.

If a race of beings, or a planet of beings hasn't gotten to the point where they can come together as planetary residents and work together to help each other, then they don't need outside influence. Racism, classic, sexism, ageism... those things cannot exist in an interstellar or intergalactic neighborhood. Especially as embraced as hate is today, if we expect to get meaningful, real benevolent and constructive visits from advanced species, we should be dying holding our breath. Would you try to "help" your neighbor if every night s/he kills and rapes his/her own kind for fun, discriminates against his/her family members, and segregates other members of her species - every single day? No, you may call the police right - and yet, police are humans too. Politicians are humans. Scientists are humans. Parents are humans. Humans kill each other for fun; advanced races seeing how we treat each other on this planet means, if they are wise they would stay away. The ones that would come to "visit" are the secret ones who would exploit the entirety of our planet (including us) for their own gain - and maybe in exchange they will give us humans their technology from 1000s of their technological years ago....

All that will happen in terms of helping humans is the humans purposefully keeping division going for their profit will feign being "honorable leaders," and keep secrets and technology for themselves.

Like is done now: releasing technology for consumer use 50 - 200 years after it has been intriduced (phones, free energy [unreleased], WiFi [Tesla], Internet [1950s military tech], ...)

Aliens can't help us advance if everytime we have a technological leap we use it to blow up a portion of the planet on which we live - all because we let other humans pull our strings. Or, we pollute our resources to maximize profit of the execution of a new technology. If you are immature already as a species, throwing technology as them will only hurt.

If there are intelligent beings, they would know this - which is why IF we have these things existent in our modernity and history, the bad ones or tricky deceptive ones are the main entities we hear about. They are secretive, they aren't trying to help the rest of the world, they are usually rumored to be government bedfellows, and they have a history of abducting humans and animals for (at least) biological and reproductive survey. Then they send those people back into the population - tagged. Those entities aren't the entities I would want to visit my pre-warp civilization.

And, those type of secretive entities are just the type of entities that would try to keep a species from naturally reaching a certain point of advancement - essentially attempting to drive the (non-darwinian meaning of) evolution of the species. They [would] do this with population control (celestial body manipulation, giving a gun to a baby, stupid wars, suppression of knowledge via rewrite and witch hunts, plagues,) and a firm control of technological and biological [darwinian] evolution. That is malevolence.

Neogaia777 said:

Maybe one day if they exist, they plan to, but, at the right time...

The Prime directive is very controversial, so, it hard to know which way a more advanced race (they) would go with it...?

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Exactly.

Even Captain Kirk would have been seen as incredibly dangerous to the galaxies given his multiple breech of prime directive - almost unapologetically - by some liberal adherents to "prime directive." Sure, he was cool because we are supposed to like him. But, he was extremely reckless. Most all of the captains were.

I am sure that if we entertain a life-permeated galaxy or systems, there will be species that would effectively put a middle finger to prime direftive. And, that is bad because it is usually a species advanced enough to be able to do so despite a "Galactic Federation/Patrol/Enforcement" (e.g. Borg, Romulan, Klingons, VGER, etc...)

Shemjaza said:

Personally I doubt they exist... but I've yet to be presented with a truly convincing solution to the Fermi paradox.

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It is unfortunate, because I love Fermi's work, and I think he has a great point in paradox. But, it assumes too much - the first is that what we think of as ET may be "ED," and the second being that he assumes we haven't been visited. I know most people don't believe when people say they were abducted and "worked on." That itself is a controversial issue - especially since in the West the accepted culture is to believe these things don't exist anyway (although, most all places West of Jerusalem longitude fully believe in EBEs and spirits.)

Ygrene Imref said:

Exactly.

Even Captain Kirk would have been seen as incredibly dangerous to the galaxies given his multiple breech of prime directive - almost unapologetically - by some liberal adherents to "prime directive." Sure, he was cool because we are supposed to like him. But, he was extremely reckless. Most all of the captains were.

I am sure that if we entertain a life-permeated galaxy or systems, there will be species that would effectively put a middle finger to prime direftive. And, that is bad because it is usually a species advanced enough to be able to do so despite a "Galactic Federation/Patrol/Enforcement" (e.g. Borg, Romulan, Klingons, VGER, etc...)

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The prime directive demands acts of extreme callousness and cruelty via negligence and refusal to compassionately intervene which contradict the moral duties demanded by justice. It is a prime example of the saying: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." It is also a good example of the ridiculous impracticality of deontological or rule thinking.

The Drake equation assumes a steady state population of civilizations (N) with average lifespan (L) such that the death rate is:

N/L

and equates that with the estimated birth rate:

R* fp ne fl fi fc

to yield:

N = R* fp ne fl fi fc L

BUT, the equation skips over the gap between star-and-habitable-planet formation (R* fp ne) and the much later eventual emergence of civilized intelligent life (fl fi fc).

Given that the disk of our Galaxy is only finitely old, and that our star system is comparably ancient, plausibly intelligent technological life is only now beginning to emerge into existence throughout the Milky Way?

If so, then the number of such civilizations is on the rise, with a birth rate far exceeding the death rate:

N/L << R* fp ne fl fi fc

N << R* fp ne fl fi fc L

If so, then the Drake equation only gives the maximum number of civilizations in a "biologically mature" galaxy, at steady state equilibrium of population.

The fact that the RHS would seem to be large, whilst the LHS would appear to be small, is then absolutely no paradox whatsoever.

It merely suggests that we are only in the "early innings of the game" when the galactic population is on the rise, and the galaxy is still "up for grabs" to an increasing number of new civilizations, rather than having already been populated by a large and now steady number of old civilizations.

John Hyperspace said:

Yeah but I would propose that math is a gigo system like logic; garbage in: garbage out. The Drake equation is an example of garbage out from garbage in. The problem is that the "probability of life" is a unknown variable, and an unknown variable is like a zero; everything in the equation turns to "unknown": this is a simple fact of the matter, until we know precisely the odds of life (by what process biogenesis takes place) we can't calculate the probability of life on earth, let alone elsewhere. Could be everywhere, could be few and scattered, could be just here. Impossible to determine in any probability-based manner.

Also I don't accept the idea of "matter" in the concept of a form of reality that is independent of conscious construct. In other words, you may knock on a table and say "This is a construct not emergent from consciousness" and I would reply, "That may well be, but you have no proof, and there is no legitimate reason to accept the statement": as illustration, I pull you into a dream. I knock on a table in the dream and say, the table is here, but it is a construct of consciousness. Thus there is no need of this hypothetical "construct not emergent from consciousness": in other words, there is no need of a hypothetical structure which is independent of consciousness in order to explain the table, since we know a table can and does exist as a construct of consciousness.

Thus, I reject "matter" (not in the linguistic sense, but in the sense of a hypothetical 'non-consciousness based construct' which exists independently of consciousness) since it cannot be proven, and is not necessary to explain the table. Therefore there is nothing that is not a construct of consciousness, and there is no one running anything independent of anything else (such as beings running a machine in which we exist) and everything in existence is emergent from a single conscious whole; the "root" consciousness of all variable consciousness "sets" contained within the whole. In other words, the substantial experience of anyone "outside the box" is identical to the experience of anyone "inside the box" and so there is no meaningful difference between the two experiences.

BUT, it is interesting to think about.

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Until someone in the dream slams your head into the table and you wake up, and then someone slams your head into the table while you are awake and sends you to sleep.

In one you wake up just fine, in the other you wake up with a bump on your head.....

But totally agree with the first part....

Radrook said:

The problem with that concept is that many of these planets are just lifeless smoldering rocks. In fact, in our solar system alone we only have one that seems specifically designed for life sustaining purposes-our Earth.

Then we are presented, for some reason, with another of equal size Venus, where it rains sulfuric acid, is a veritable lead-smelting oven and where the atmospheric pressure can crush you.

Then when we peer beyond our locality, we discover planets in other solar systems which alternate between frozen wastelands and a blazing infernos due to their extremely elliptical orbits. The motive or reason for all this naturally arises unless one is brain dead.

BTW

This is not to discount a creator. This is simply asking for the why for all the seeming wastage and what appears to be chaos. A degenerate universe caused by Adamic sin?

Click to expand...

For you to gaze up in wonder and understand the awesome power of the One that created everything. It's for your benefit, so you understand the universe declares the glory and power of the Creator. That is it's purpose....... and it has nothing to do with sin..... but those lifeless planets instead declare your uniqueness and His love, for all this was created for you.....so you would understand He has the power to do what He promised.....