The Double Message of Eternal Security.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Let me ask you something. What about the man beating his wife, getting drunk all the time and being a thief leaves you to believe this man has the Holy Spirit residing in him, or has any laws of the Spirit written on his heart? What made him a Christian?

I hope I am correctly understanding the point you are making.

I do NOT believe the instant a person becomes a Christian all sin suddenly vanishes. As a teenager I believed it concerning others, but knew I was not sinless.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ, EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgression/sin. It is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:5

If you are made alive with Christ you are in a saved state. And as per your quote of Rom8:9 that can only happen if the Holy Spirit dwells in you.

Categorical proof all sin does not cease the moment you get saved/ the Holy Spirit dwells in you:

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

This is the problem with many evangelical/ Pentecostals. They live in a gaga land, QUOTing randomly the letter without understanding the reality.
The Christian is a work in progress all their life. And God will firstly deal with the most urgent things in the individuals life

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I hope I am correctly understanding the point you are making.

I do NOT believe the instant a person becomes a Christian all sin suddenly vanishes. As a teenager I believed it concerning others, but knew I was not sinless.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ, EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgression/sin. It is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:5

If you are made alive with Christ you are in a saved state. And as per your quote of Rom8:9 that can only happen if the Holy Spirit dwells in you.

Categorical proof all sin does not cease the moment you get saved/ the Holy Spirit dwells in you:

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

This is the problem with many evangelical/ Pentecostals. They live in a gaga land, QUOTing randomly the letter without understanding the reality.
The Christian is a work in progress all their life. And God will firstly deal with the most urgent things in the individuals life

Then what in the life of the drunk, wife beating thief changed?

I was hoping in your story, that the second time we heard of this guy, his life would have shown some kind of change. Nothing.

The key was missing. 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Then what in the life of the drunk, wife beating thief changed?

I was hoping in your story, that the second time we heard of this guy, his life would have shown some kind of change. Nothing.

The key was missing. 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

The new Christian hates the sin that still binds them, they don't want it. But although some people have dramatic release from many sins instantly, for the majority it takes time, through faith in Christ to see victory over many deep rooted sins.
The scriptures I quoted prove the truth of what I have stated.
The man I gave you as an example. I did say if there was no change in him he had not truly been born again

Dan61861 · Jul 6, 2017

As Christians, we are not excused from sin. A loving father does not spare the rod. A healthy fear of God is good for all of us. The Lord will correct those He loves.

In Christ
Daniel

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The new Christian hates the sin that still binds them, they don't want it. But although some people have dramatic release from many sins instantly, for the majority it takes time, through faith in Christ to see victory over many deep rooted sins.
The scriptures I quoted prove the truth of what I have stated.
The man I gave you as an example. I did say if there was no change in him he had not truly been born again

It looks like I'm in the middle between you and Jason. That's good, 'cause sometimes I get cold.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
It looks like I'm in the middle between you and Jason. That's good, 'cause sometimes I get cold.

Are you saying the Holy Spirit will not dwell in anyone until all sin has ceased?

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2017

Dan61861 said:
I apologize for taking so long to respond to this, with work it can be difficult to keep up. I do believe my salvation is secure. I do not believe that this believe is a salvation issue.

Now, I had given you a scripture Ephesians 1:13-14, that does teach eternal security. To make your point, you brutally misrepresented the scripture. We are not sealed with approval, we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT. It is God working in us, not God approving of us.

As you said:

God sets His seal of approval on those who believe.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom(Christ) you (Christians) also trusted,(Christians trusted in Christ) after that you heard the word of truth(We trusted after hearing the Word of Truth), the Gospel of your salvation (The Gospel is that Word of Truth) in whom also you believed,(We believed in Christ, Him crucified) you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,(We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are born again.) which is the earnest of our inheritance,(We are Christ’s inheritance) until the redemption of the purchased possession,(Christ has purchased us with His blood, He will gather us to Him, until He does we are sealed with the Holy Spirit) unto the praise of His Glory. (All to the Glory of God).

While I will admit, this is much like the debate between the Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Each ignoring the evidence the other presents. Myself, I am neither. The Bible teaches both…God is sovereign, man has free will. Yet God’s sovereignty always trumps man’s free will. In the same sense, the Bible teaches both eternal security and turning away from the truth. We cannot ignore one to support the other. But one is greater than the other…if you believe.

As you said:

Believers have the promise of salvation.

As I said, I am a proponent of once saved always saved. For me this is truth. For what God has begun in me, He will finish, this is Ephesians 1:13-14. I believe God is faithful, I believe He will keep His promise. I believe I will be resurrected with Christ.

I believe

1. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

3. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

4. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believe=Saved
Believe for a while= They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. This answers the Parable you had given.

In Christ
Daniel

interesting answer....so the seal is the holy spirit
so its if you are led by the spirit you are sons of God?

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes EVIDENT that we ourselves are sinners. Does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17.

Why did Paul feel the need to ask the question:

Does Christ promote sin

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Are you saying the Holy Spirit will not dwell in anyone until all sin has ceased?

Jesus is not a having your cake and eating it too kinda God. Jesus called us to repent in order to receive His gift of the Holy Spirit to give you the power to not return to your sin. Jesus not only cleanses you from the punishment from your sin, but the desire to repeat the sin also through His Spirit.

Many believe the gospel of grace is a covering over the sin underneath, like an invisibility cloak. No grace is far more than a bandaid over pus. It literally is the POWER OF GOD as I've shown you in Acts 4:33.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Jesus is not a having your cake and eating it too kinda God. Jesus called us to repent in order to receive His gift of the Holy Spirit to give you the power to not return to your sin. Jesus not only cleanses you from the punishment from your sin, but the desire to repeat the sin also through His Spirit.

Many believe the gospel of grace is a covering over the sin underneath, like an invisibility cloak. No grace is far more than a bandaid. It literally is the POWER OF GOD as I've shown you in Acts 4:33.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit will not dwell in anyone until all sin has ceased?

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Do you believe the Holy Spirit will not dwell in anyone until all sin has ceased?

Acts 4:38. How many sins is the person repenting from to receive the Holy Spirit?

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Acts 4:38. How many sins is the person repenting from to receive the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit will not dwell in anyone until all sin has ceased?

Yes or no is adequate

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

The problems with saying the Holy spirit will not dwell in anyone u til all sin has ceased

1)
The Christian is sanctified by the Spirit.
If a person has to cease all sin before the Spirit dwells in them, they, in their own strength must defeat all their sin before the Holy Spirit dwells in them. They do NOT have the power of the Spirit to overcome sin
2) A person must be under a righteousness of observing: thou shalt not. For they cannot be saved until they have ceased all sin/ faultlessly observed the law
3) But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgression/ sin. It is by grace you have been saved eph5:2
So Paul believed you are made alive with Christ/ in a saved state while you are dead in sin

4) if while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?
Gal2:16

5) For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14
Only the saved can be under grace.

So if the Holy Spirit will only dwell in you if all sin has firstly ceased, you must cease all sin whilst under the law in your own strength.

People's concerns this is a licence to sin, are the reason Paul asked the question in gal2:16
Does Christ promotes sin?
He immediately answers his own question.
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

When a person becomes a Christian the law is placed in their heart. They in their heart want to obey it. They feel wretched about their sin, they want victory over it, for they have been born again and the law is in their heart.
But victory over sin comes through a righteousness of faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Neither of these are available if the unsaved must cease all sin before they can become saved.
God will accept you as you are, a miserable sinner. He will put you in a saved state while dead in transgression. In that saved state you can then trust in Christ and have the power of the holy Spirit who sanctifies you

While we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly
Rom5:6

People without strength, and without the holy spirit cannot defeat their own sin that may be deep rooted over decades.

Dan61861 · Jul 6, 2017

corinth77777 said:
interesting answer....so the seal is the holy spirit
so its if you are led by the spirit you are sons of God?

Yes, if you are a child of God...you are sealed by the Holy Spirit. This is the temple God is building, to dwell in His children. The same temple God promised David. Jesus is the chief cornerstone, He is the foundation we are built upon.

Everything points to Christ and Him crucified.
O, the wonders of God's grace...may God be magnified!

In Christ
Daniel

Let me give you an example, how it all points to Christ.

Paul says, you should not muzzle an ox while it is threshing. Does God care for oxen, the oxen represent the apostles spreading the Gospel.

In the Old Testament, there was a sea before the temple. The priest would wash in the sea and be clean before entering the temple. Under the sea were 12 oxen, 3 pointing north, 3 south, three east and three west.

The sea represents the gospel, baptism. The 12 oxen, the 12 apostles spreading the Gospel throughout the world.

It all points to Christ and Him crucified.

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
When a person becomes a Christian the law is placed in their heart. They in their heart want to obey it. They feel wretched about their sin, they want victory over it, for they have been born again and the law is in their heart.
But victory over sin comes through a righteousness of faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Neither of these are available if the unsaved must cease all sin before they can become saved.
God will accept you as you are, a miserable sinner. He will put you in a saved state while dead in transgression. In that saved state you can then trust in Christ and have the power of the holy Spirit who sanctifies you

While we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly
Rom5:6

People without strength, and without the holy spirit cannot defeat their own sin that may be deep rooted over decades.

To say nothing about repentance, is half the truth. I know I was in the church for 30 years before I finally repented and was immediately filled with the Holy Spirit and received power over sin like I had never known. Now was I saved before receiving the Spirit, I can't say. But I'm sure glad I didn't die in my weakness. That's a gamble I'm glad I didn't have to make. Now will I tell someone to receive Jesus and if you someday come to hate your sin and then repent - hey I'm not going to play with someone's eternal destiny and assure them that they are saved while they beat their wife, get drunk every night and rob their neighbors. There is enough scripture that tells me those like that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

I preach the importance of having the Holy Spirit. First, you must be taught about Jesus and want to repent of your sin. Once you are sorry and accept Jesus to cleanse you from that sin, He gives you the Holy Spirit - in that order.

ToBeLoved · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The problems with saying the Holy spirit will not dwell in anyone u til all sin has ceased

1)
The Christian is sanctified by the Spirit.
If a person has to cease all sin before the Spirit dwells in them, they, in their own strength must defeat all their sin before the Holy Spirit dwells in them. They do NOT have the power of the Spirit to overcome sin
2) A person must be under a righteousness of observing: thou shalt not. For they cannot be saved until they have ceased all sin/ faultlessly observed the law
3) But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgression/ sin. It is by grace you have been saved eph5:2
So Paul believed you are made alive with Christ/ in a saved state while you are dead in sin

4) if while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?
Gal2:16

5) For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14
Only the saved can be under grace.

So if the Holy Spirit will only dwell in you if all sin has firstly ceased, you must cease all sin whilst under the law in your own strength.

People's concerns this is a licence to sin, are the reason Paul asked the question in gal2:16
Does Christ promotes sin?
He immediately answers his own question.
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker

I'll add what if the poor chap dies before they become sinless. No Holy Spirit, no Christ.

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I'll add what if the poor chap dies before they become sinless. No Holy Spirit, no Christ.

Right, no Holy Spirit, no Christ.

Romans 8:9

ToBeLoved · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
To say nothing about repentance, is half the truth. I know I was in the church for 30 years before I finally repented and was immediately filled with the Holy Spirit and received power over sin like I had never known. Now was I saved before receiving the Spirit, I can't say. But I'm sure glad I didn't die in my weakness. That's a gamble I'm glad I didn't have to make. Now will I tell someone to receive Jesus and if you someday come to hate your sin and then repent - hey I'm not going to play with someone's eternal destiny and assure them that they are saved while they beat their wife, get drunk every night and rob their neighbors. There is enough scripture that tells me those like that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

I preach the importance of having the Holy Spirit. First, you must be taught about Jesus and want to repent of your sin. Once you are sorry and accept Jesus to cleanse you from that sin, He gives you the Holy Spirit - in that order.

What kind of church were you going to where you didn't know you needed the Holy Spirit for 30 years?

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
To say nothing about repentance, is half the truth. I know I was in the church for 30 years before I finally repented and was immediately filled with the Holy Spirit and received power over sin like I had never known. Now was I saved before receiving the Spirit, I can't say. But I'm sure glad I didn't die in my weakness. That's a gamble I'm glad I didn't have to make. Now will I tell someone to receive Jesus and if you someday come to hate your sin and then repent - hey I'm not going to play with someone's eternal destiny and assure them that they are saved while they beat their wife, get drunk every night and rob their neighbors. There is enough scripture that tells me those like that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

I preach the importance of having the Holy Spirit. First, you must be taught about Jesus and want to repent of your sin. Once you are sorry and accept Jesus to cleanse you from that sin, He gives you the Holy Spirit - in that order.

A truly born again Christian hates the sin that binds them. They don't want a licence to sin, they want victory over it.
As for beating your wife, getting drunk every night, being a habitual thief, constantly using foul language. Yes, God will accept even such a wretched soul, then he will change them, by a righteousness of faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. NEITHER of which are available to the unsaved

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