The Doctrines Of Grace

Hammster · Nov 1, 2009

I find it interesting that God, who wants everyone saved, is powerless to do so. I guess His grace isn't sufficient after all.

mlqurgw · Nov 1, 2009

If Christ died for all men indiscriminately did He die for Judas?
If Christ died for all men then of what actual use is the death of Christ?
If Christ died for all men ( the whole world) how is it that Hell is full?
If Christ died for all men then what is it that determines whether a person is saved?
If by the death of Christ God is reconciled to all men then how is it that His wrath falls on any?
If the Father loves all men, Christ died for all men and the Spirit calls all men then what good is the love of the Father, the death of Christ or the call of the Spirit?

Vince53 · Nov 1, 2009

I have noticed that when the Bible teaches that God wants all men to be saved, Calvinists argue that the passage is talking to Christians, so "all men," or "the world" must refer only to the elect. However, neither the context, the rest of the Bible, nor the dictionary, will support that doctrine.

PrincetonGuy · Nov 1, 2009

TimRout said:
Since our hyperlink system isn't working right now, allow me to repost my earlier refutation:Again friend, please provide exegetical evidence that demonstrates why we should take "world" to mean all people exhaustively.Now let me see if I understand you correctly, Vince. Even though Jesus has already specified that He came to save those who have been elected by the Father [6:37-44], and that those who disbelieve do so because they are not of God's elected sheep [10:26], you insist that here -- in chapter 12 -- Jesus is departing from the previously established context of John's Gospel in order to establish a contradictory doctrinal position? I should think not!

My dear readers,

Jesus did NOT specify in John 6:37-44 that He came to save those who have been elected by the Father; Tim Rout said that, not Jesus. Here is what Jesus said,

John 6:37. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
41. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, I am the bread that came down out of heaven.
42. They were saying, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, I have come down out of heaven?
43. Jesus answered and said to them, Do not grumble among yourselves.
44. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

What occasioned Jesus to say these words, and what did He mean by them? The answer to those questions is learned from the context in which they are found. For that, we need to back up to v. 22,

22. The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone.
23. There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
24. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.
25. When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, Rabbi, when did You get here?
26. Jesus answered them and said, Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27. Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.
28. Therefore they said to Him, What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?
29. Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
30. So they said to Him, What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31. Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.
32. Jesus then said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.
34. Then they said to Him, Lord, always give us this bread.
35. Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

We can see immediately from the above verses that the conversation between Jesus and this crowed was confrontational and that the crowd consisted of a group of selfish Jews who were more interested in getting free food to eat (v. 26) than they were in partaking of the Bread of Life. Jesus responded to their worldly, selfish attitude by saying,

27. Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.
28. Therefore they said to Him, What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?
29. Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Jesus goes here right to the heart of the matterthey MUST believe in Him in order to have eternal life. Indeed, He tells them that they must work for the food which endures to eternal life. These Jews then ask Jesus what work of God they must perform (v. 28). He replies (v. 29) that the work of God that they must perform is believing in Him whom He has sent. There is no imaginative play on words here, no change in the use of the genitive case, no exegetically sound way out of this one! Jesus is telling this crowd of Jews that the work of God that they must perform is believing in Him whom He has sent. In verse 30 the Jews ask Jesus, What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work [the same Greek word] do You perform? They tell Jesus that God gave their fathers manna in the wilderness, and Jesus replies that it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. Notice to whom the Father gives the true bread out of heaventhe recipients of His gift includes these unbelieving (v.36) Jews! In verse 33 Jesus tells these unbelieving Jews that the true bread out of heaven gives life to the worldthe world without any such modifiers as the elect. Lest there be any doubt, Jesus explicitly says in verse 35, I am the bread of life.

In verse 37, Jesus says to these Jews, All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. To whom does the word all in this verse apply? It applies to all those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent (v. 29), so that the Father can give them to Jesus. All of those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent, will come to Jesus.

In John chapter 6 we find, therefore, Jesus expressly teaching these Jews that, in order to be saved and have eternal life, they must perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent.

As for Tim Routs claim that those who disbelieve do so because they are not of God's elected sheep [10:26], the Bible says,

John 10:26. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

In the Greek text of John 10:27, all three verbs are in the Greek present tense, stressing continuous, uninterrupted action. Those sheep who are hearing the voice of Jesus are his sheep and He is knowing them and they are following Him. This passage says absolutely nothing about who are and who are not God's elected sheep.

PrincetonGuy · Nov 1, 2009

Hammster said:
I find it interesting that God, who wants everyone saved, is powerless to do so. I guess His grace isn't sufficient after all.

No one in this thread is saying or implying that God is powerless to save everyone, or that Gods grace is not sufficient for all. God, by His sovereign will, created His most noble creation with a free will to love Him and serve Him, or to hate Him and reject Him. Throughout the course of history, we find multitudes of men and women, boys and girls, choosing to love God and to serve Him in the face of the most horrible manners of persecution and torture, bringing glory to God that extends beyond the glory found in the expanse of the universe. The fact that multitudes of others have made a different choice in no way detracts from the sovereign decision of God to create man as He did, with a free will; neither does it detract from His infinite power, or the sufficiency of His grace.

Vince53 · Nov 1, 2009

Going back to the Biblical doctrine that God calls all men to be saved, but they can resist His grace:

11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

mlqurgw · Nov 1, 2009

PrincetonGuy said:
No one in this thread is saying or implying that God is powerless to save everyone, or that Gods grace is not sufficient for all. God, by His sovereign will, created His most noble creation with a free will to love Him and serve Him, or to hate Him and reject Him. Throughout the course of history, we find multitudes of men and women, boys and girls, choosing to love God and to serve Him in the face of the most horrible manners of persecution and torture, bringing glory to God that extends beyond the glory found in the expanse of the universe. The fact that multitudes of others have made a different choice in no way detracts from the sovereign decision of God to create man as He did, with a free will; neither does it detract from His infinite power, or the sufficiency of His grace.

Do you believe it is man who makes the difference in salvation? Will you honestly say that some men are saved because they did something that other men didn't?

mlqurgw · Nov 1, 2009

Vince53 said:
Going back to the Biblical doctrine that God calls all men to be saved, but they can resist His grace:

11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

I will ask you the same question I asked PrincetonGuy. Do you actually believe that man makes the difference in salvation? Will you honestly admit that some men do something that saves them that other men don't?

mlqurgw · Nov 1, 2009

Many contend that God loves all men without exception and desires to save all men without exception. I must ask then what good is the love of God to any man if He can't save those He loves. How loving would a father or mother be if the child that is the apple of their eye is in the most urgent of danger, such as about to fall into a pit where poisonous snakes will not only kill but cause untold torture, and they have both the wisdom and power to save it but will not because it would violate its free will? All they do is stand by it and beg it to get out of danger. We would put that parent in jail. But that is the kind of love many here espouse. No a loving parent would snatch that child out of danger by the nape of the neck because of love. A parent who was able to save would save. And the child would be thankful.

PrincetonGuy · Nov 1, 2009

mlqurgw said:
Do you believe it is man who makes the difference in salvation? Will you honestly say that some men are saved because they did something that other men didn't?

I believe what Jesus taught in John chapter 6, and everywhere else in the four gospels, right down to His very words.

RobertZ · Nov 1, 2009

mlqurgw said:
Will you honestly say that some men are saved because they did something that other men didn't?

Believe?

mlqurgw · Nov 1, 2009

PrincetonGuy said:
I believe what Jesus taught in John chapter 6, and everywhere else in the four gospels, right down to His very words.

Which, according to what you have written, is that man makes the difference in salvation and that some men do something that saves them that other men don't do. Which of course is the very definition of a works salvation. And you might also know that your little device of skirting the question will fool no one. If you can't honestly and plainly answer the question what are we to think? Are you ashamed to actually be clear as to the answer? I have built no straw man here. I simply have taken your position to its logical conclusion. I have reduced it to the absurdity that it is.

FreeinChrist · Nov 1, 2009

Admin hat

I closed one thread that was a debate between Calvinists and nonCalvinists and I wrote that the debate/fight from Soteriology would NOT continue here. Then this thread got bumped.

I am closing it for staff review. Again, the debate/fight from Soteriology will NOT continue in the Baptist forum.

You may note that this thread has been 'cleaned-up' to some degree. We decided to do that and yet leave it closed - we do nt want the debate from Soteriology coming to the Baptist forum but there are some well thought out posts in this thread that took time to write and should be available.

The Doctrines Of Grace

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