The difference between our creation and our conception.

[TedT]

You either believe people are innocent and sinless
Or you believe we have a sin nature that needs to come to Christ.
Those are the two options.

Nope; they are both sinless and sinful before redemption at different times.

I believe that sin can only be adjudicated for the free will decision to sin, NOT by putting anyone into Adam's sin. That's not hard to grasp, eh? I don't say infants are not sinners like some; I say they do not get their sin from Adam, a blasphemy against GOD's good name.

This isn't God creating evil as you keep saying, it is mankind who took perfection and corrupted it. The world is groaning because of it.

But when did you sin? When did you corrupt the perfection of your creation?

1. Sin can only accrue to a free will decision to sin.
2. Death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life.
3. Fetuses, infants and babies all die.
4. Therefore they must be sinners under a judgement of suffering and death.

When did they get to make a free will decision to sin IF they were created at conception as tabula rasa and evil in nature? The theology of our pre-conception existence, aka PCE, contends that: everyone is a sinner AT their conception but not BY their conception. Every sinner has had a free will existence before the foundation of the world but now has their free will curtailed by their enslavement to sin until they are reborn...

PCE contends that all those created in GOD"s image, ie, fit to be a proper bride for HIM, were created before the creation of the physical universe with an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith, their unproven hope Hebrews 11:1, 2 Corinthians 5:7, etc, in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin and a fit husband, a decision HE said would bring them into HIS promise of election to salvation if they should ever choose to sin
AND
an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith, their unproven hope, against HIM as a false GOD lying about the nature of sin as needing a saviour and, as a false god, totally unfit to be a proper husband, under HIS warning that this would be an unforgivable sin and they would end in the horrors of hell.

When creation heard HIS proclamation of his Deity, HIS purpose in our creation to marry us and the gospel truth of salvation from sin as mentioned in Col 1:23, they/we came to a free will decision, ie totally uncoerced by anything, to accept HIM as telling us the truth or not.

These decisions separated all of creation into two basic groups:
- the elect who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin
- those condemned already as eternally evil reprobate who chose to put their faith in the idea HE was no better or higher than anyone else and so he was a liar and a false god and, as the first sinner he was the most evil person in creation, a decision by which they sinned the unforgivable sin.

Then when GOD called for HIS elect to come out and to be separate in their hearts from these now condemned reprobate so as to not be pulled up with them in their judgement, the elect were separated into two groups,
- the holy elect who chose to never sin and obeyed this call and
- the sinful elect who chose to rebel against GOD's command to come out and to be separate from their friends who were now condemned, idolizing them over their GOD which forced the postponement of the judgement, Matt 13:27-30, until they could be redeemed and fully sanctified, that is, forsaking their idolatry and accepting GOD's plan for the Satanic as an absolute necessity.

Then all sinners were flung into Sheol in the centre of the earth to be moved, sown by conception, not creation, into the world by Christ and the devil as GOD see fit: Matt 13:36-39. In this way everyone is a sinner AT their conception but not BY their conception.

I like to answer questions...

 

[disciple Clint]

Nope; they are both sinless and sinful before redemption at different times.

I believe that sin can only be adjudicated for the free will decision to sin, NOT by putting anyone into Adam's sin. That's not hard to grasp, eh? I don't say infants are not sinners like some; I say they do not get their sin from Adam, a blasphemy against GOD's good name.



But when did you sin? When did you corrupt the perfection of your creation?

1. Sin can only accrue to a free will decision to sin.
2. Death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life.
3. Fetuses, infants and babies all die.
4. Therefore they must be sinners under a judgement of suffering and death.

When did they get to make a free will decision to sin IF they were created at conception as tabula rasa and evil in nature? The theology of our pre-conception existence, aka PCE, contends that: everyone is a sinner AT their conception but not BY their conception. Every sinner has had a free will existence before the foundation of the world but now has their free will curtailed by their enslavement to sin until they are reborn...

PCE contends that all those created in GOD"s image, ie, fit to be a proper bride for HIM, were created before the creation of the physical universe with an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith, their unproven hope Hebrews 11:1, 2 Corinthians 5:7, etc, in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin and a fit husband, a decision HE said would bring them into HIS promise of election to salvation if they should ever choose to sin
AND
an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith, their unproven hope, against HIM as a false GOD lying about the nature of sin as needing a saviour and, as a false god, totally unfit to be a proper husband, under HIS warning that this would be an unforgivable sin and they would end in the horrors of hell.

When creation heard HIS proclamation of his Deity, HIS purpose in our creation to marry us and the gospel truth of salvation from sin as mentioned in Col 1:23, they/we came to a free will decision, ie totally uncoerced by anything, to accept HIM as telling us the truth or not.

These decisions separated all of creation into two basic groups:
- the elect who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin
- those condemned already as eternally evil reprobate who chose to put their faith in the idea HE was no better or higher than anyone else and so he was a liar and a false god and, as the first sinner he was the most evil person in creation, a decision by which they sinned the unforgivable sin.

Then when GOD called for HIS elect to come out and to be separate in their hearts from these now condemned reprobate so as to not be pulled up with them in their judgement, the elect were separated into two groups,
- the holy elect who chose to never sin and obeyed this call and
- the sinful elect who chose to rebel against GOD's command to come out and to be separate from their friends who were now condemned, idolizing them over their GOD which forced the postponement of the judgement, Matt 13:27-30, until they could be redeemed and fully sanctified, that is, forsaking their idolatry and accepting GOD's plan for the Satanic as an absolute necessity.

Then all sinners were flung into Sheol in the centre of the earth to be moved, sown by conception, not creation, into the world by Christ and the devil as GOD see fit: Matt 13:36-39. In this way everyone is a sinner AT their conception but not BY their conception.

I like to answer questions...

So cutting to the bottom line, are you saying that death did not come into existence because of the actions of Adam? And therefore there was not reason for the sacrifice of Jesus as atonement for the actions of Adam? that would be a whole new gospel.

 

[Eloy Craft]

believe that sin can only be adjudicated for the free will decision to sin, NOT by putting anyone into Adam's sin. That's not hard to grasp, eh? I don't say infants are not sinners like some; I say they do not get their sin from Adam, a blasphemy against GOD's good name.

Hold on please

 

[TedT]

So cutting to the bottom line, are you saying that death did not come into existence because of the actions of Adam? And therefore there was not reason for the sacrifice of Jesus as atonement for the actions of Adam? that would be a whole new gospel.

OF COURSE NOT!

This leap for no reason into accusing me of denying the gospel of salvation as found only in Christ is anathema to me.

I believe that Jesus was the divine Lamb sacrificed for the atonement of all sinners who did not choose to sin the unforgivable sin.

I believe that Jesus was the divine Lamb sacrificed for the atonement of all sinners who became sinful by their free will choice to rebel against YHWH's commands while putting their faith in HIM as our GOD and Saviour from all sin.

Romans 5:12 does not say we were put into Adam and therefore became sinners! It says we were put into Adams DEATH because we were [ALREADY] sinners.

I suggest this was done so Christ would need to die only one death for all elect sinners, and not once for each sinner.

Christ had to atone for Adam's sin only and not his sin in us but for our own sin only:
Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child (human) will not share the guilt of the parent (Adam), nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.