The Didache: Proof of Deviation From Christ's Teachings by Apostolic Fathers

The Liturgist · Aug 4, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
I know you and others would like to have us think that, but it bears no resemblance to any of the apostles writings

Neither does the Epistle to the Hebrews. We commonly attribute it to St. Paul but in fact the identity of the author has never been proven.

For that matter, the book of Revelation is stylistically very different from the Gospel of St. John and his Epistles. And in terms of content it is completely different from the rest of the New Testament.

Likewise, James and Jude are outliers.

And for a time, Martin Luther really wanted to remove all four books, but this was unpopular, so instead they became the “antilegomenna” - he included them in his translation but placed them at the very end in the hopes of deprecating them.

In the case of Revelations, this backfired because as books became more widely owned, we know that many people tend to go to Genesis and then jump to Revelation. Since only the content and not the order of the New Testament is defined by the Athanasian canon, I feel like the four Gospels should probably go at the end, perhaps flipped over, like a double-sided book, so one side would open with Genesis 1 and the other side with John 1.

The Liturgist · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
I asked this before, and you went away.
Can you answer it now.
Where does the scriptures command Effusion?

I’ve never said they command effusion or aspersion. I have no idea why you think I would say that. In the Orthodox Church we don’t even use these methods of baptizing, but do full immersions only.

prodromos · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
The hypocrites fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but the righteous fast Wednesdays and Fridays?

Jesus said "when you fast", not "if you fast", so Christians exercising a discipline of fasting is a given. The reason the Church set aside Wednesday and Friday as fasting days was as a reminder of Judas' betrayal of Jesus on Wednesday and Christ's crucifixion on Friday. It reminds us that our sin is betrayal of Jesus, and what led to his death on the cross.

CoreyD · Aug 4, 2024

The Liturgist said:
That would work very well for me, but I would want to know what sources you consulted, and depending on them, I might want to refer you to one of the scholarly works I used so you can understand where I am coming from.

Specifically there are about five Patristic books and three more recent books that I use for reference purposes, in addition to more specialized works, but if you had access to even two or three of those books I believe you would be able to understand my point of view, without having to agree with it.

By the way its against the rules of CF.com to try to proselytize someone to your denomination, so I want to assure you I have no interest in that - I regard you as a fellow Nicene Christian. But I think it would be ideal if I didn’t have to explain things to you, but could instead just summarize, let you research it, but also know where you researched it, and if I think you missed out on salient details, I would want to be able to suggest a work to you, that you could chose to look at or not look at, but in looking at it you would either be able to see that I had made a mistake and inform me of it, or else you would be able to understand, even if you rejected, my perspective.

I do also have a very large library of public domain ebooks which I can share with you, which are mostly by scholarly writers who try to remain doctrinally neutral.

God bless you,

You don't have to worry about my saying where my source is from. I always... always provide a source, and the link to that source.
Why did you bring "its against the rules of CF.com to try to proselytize someone to your denomination"? Do you think I am trying to proselytize you?

Why do you keep bringing up CF rules when talking to me?
I need to know this.

CoreyD · Aug 4, 2024

The Liturgist said:
I’ve never said they command effusion or aspersion. I have no idea why you think I would say that. In the Orthodox Church we don’t even use these methods of baptizing, but do full immersions only.

Did I say you said this?
Do we have a communication problem? Do I sound like I am speaking a foreign language?
I understand it's foreign spiritually, but you seem to misunderstand almost everything I say.

The Didache commands Effusion, so you do agree there is a contradiction between that and the scriptures, then?

ARBITER01 · Aug 4, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Neither does the Epistle to the Hebrews. We commonly attribute it to St. Paul but in fact the identity of the author has never been proven.

For that matter, the book of Revelation is stylistically very different from the Gospel of St. John and his Epistles. And in terms of content it is completely different from the rest of the New Testament.

Likewise, James and Jude are outliers.

And for a time, Martin Luther really wanted to remove all four books, but this was unpopular, so instead they became the “antilegomenna” - he included them in his translation but placed them at the very end in the hopes of deprecating them.

In the case of Revelations, this backfired because as books became more widely owned, we know that many people tend to go to Genesis and then jump to Revelation. Since only the content and not the order of the New Testament is defined by the Athanasian canon, I feel like the four Gospels should probably go at the end, perhaps flipped over, like a double-sided book, so one side would open with Genesis 1 and the other side with John 1.

I'm sorry, but you're pretty much on your own with this.

It is a church teaching document that has no reference to the writing of our first century Apostles. Their writings are the standard amongst Christianity, they have the quickening of The Holy Spirit, not that wanna-be document.

BNR32FAN · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
I wonder if @BNR32FAN would agree with this :

We were looking at 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He said...

How would you answer address that question?
Would you say this is the same temple mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
Can you explain your response please.

No the Temple of God is not in Rome.

CoreyD · Aug 4, 2024

prodromos said:
Jesus said "when you fast", not "if you fast", so Christians exercising a discipline of fasting is a given. The reason the Church set aside Wednesday and Friday as fasting days was as a reminder of Judas' betrayal of Jesus on Wednesday and Christ's crucifixion on Friday. It reminds us that our sin is betrayal of Jesus, and what led to his death on the cross.

Oh dear.
The twelve apostles told you this?
Or is this the later church doctrine which is why you know it?

The Liturgist · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
Did I say you said this?
Do we have a communication problem? Do I sound like I am speaking a foreign language?
I understand it's foreign spiritually, but you seem to misunderstand almost everything I say.

The Didache commands Effusion, so you do agree there is a contradiction between that and the scriptures, then?

Not the critical edition of it that I have. So I would assume we are using variant texts.

CoreyD · Aug 4, 2024

prodromos said:
It was widely accepted as authoritive in the early Church

Of course. It was from the early church.

CoreyD · Aug 4, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Not the critical edition of it that I have. So I would assume we are using variant texts.

Do you have Didache: Complete Text?
Chapter Seven

And concerning baptism, in this manner baptize: when you have gone over these things, baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in running water. If you do not have running water, baptize in other water. If you are not able to use cold water, use warm. And if you have neither, pour water on the head three times, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

CoreyD · Aug 4, 2024

Good night.

The Liturgist · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
Do you have Didache: Complete Text?
Chapter Seven

That’s not a commandment, but a universally accepted emergency procedure. Even the Orthodox will do that, for example, if someone has a tracheotomy.

The Liturgist · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
Do you have Didache: Complete Text?
Chapter Seven

We seem to have the same text but you seem to be drawing very different conclusions about what it means. You need to read the history of the Orthodox Church between the first and eleventh centuries.

prodromos · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
The Didache commands Effusion, so you do agree there is a contradiction between that and the scriptures, then?

It only gives it as an option when there is not sufficient water for full immersion. There are Christian communities that exist in places where water is scarce. What would you have them do?

The Liturgist · Aug 4, 2024

prodromos said:
It only gives it as an option when there is not sufficient water for full immersion. There are Christian communities that exist in places where water is scarce. What would you have them do?

Indeed, historically they were the main users of this procedure. For example, the Christian Bedouins in Jordan, Sinai, Syria, Kuwait, Iraq, and the Holy Land who are members of the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem or the Antiochian Orthodox Church, both of which are primarily Arabic-speaking (except for the hierarchy of the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, which consists mostly of Greek expatriates and ethnic Greeks born in Israel or Palestine, who primarily speak Greek, but this is useful, because of the extremely large number of Greek pilgrims, Greek, Armenian and English being the most widely spoken languages among pilgrims to Jerusalem and Bethlehem, where the ethnic Greeks are conentrated, whereas elsewhere, in the rural areas, which is where one finds the Christian Bedouins, there is no benefit to that and thus the local vernacular is spoken.

chevyontheriver · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
The Didache commands Effusion, so you do agree there is a contradiction between that and the scriptures, then?

Where does the Didache 'command' effusion?

prodromos · Aug 4, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Where does the Didache 'command' effusion?

In the same place it 'commands' baptising in running water

chevyontheriver · Aug 4, 2024

CoreyD said:
Actually, the proof is in the Bible, and the Didache verifies that it is not legit.

Nope.

CoreyD said:
Baptism is one of the main proofs
Why don't you address that, rather than appeal to interpretation?
Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink
Was baptism not by immersion? Matthew 3:16, 17; John 3:23 Was there not a basis for that? Romans 6:4-6; Colossians 2:12

What does someone in a tiny village in the middle of the Saudi Peninsula do for baptism? People don't do tub baths there generally so immersion would be really rough. How do they then get baptized?

CoreyD said:
You are obviously emotional about this.

Emotional because I disagree with you? Are all the people who disagree with you 'emotional'? Or is it just me? And how do you know my emotional state? Are you spying on me?

CoreyD said:
So far, you have not shown why persons should accept the Didache.

Because it is one of the earliest witnesses to the Christian faith.

CoreyD said:
You are aware Jesus spoke about the hypocritical fasting, are you? Luke 18:9-1

CoreyD said:
...I fast twice a week;...

Chapter Eight

The hypocrites fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but the righteous fast Wednesdays and Fridays?

What do you have to say about that.

Fasting is something Jesus expected us to do. He said "when you fast" and never said "don't fast". The Orthodox have long corporately fasted on Wednesdays and Fridays. Catholics put up such a wimpy fast in comparison. Fasting on Wednesday is to remember the betrayal of Judas and on Friday is to remember the passion and death of Jesus. You can think all you want that Christians fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays are hypocrites. But you don't make many friends with the Orthodox that way.

The Liturgist · Aug 4, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Nope.

What does someone in a tiny village in the middle of the Saudi Peninsula do for baptism? People don't do tub baths there generally so immersion would be really rough. How do they then get baptized?

Emotional because I disagree with you? Are all the people who disagree with you 'emotional'? Or is it just me? And how do you know my emotional state? Are you spying on me?

Because it is one of the earliest witnesses to the Christian faith.

Fasting is something Jesus expected us to do. He said "when you fast" and never said "don't fast". The Orthodox have long corporately fasted on Wednesdays and Fridays. Catholics put up such a wimpy fast in comparison. Fasting on Wednesday is to remember the betrayal of Judas and on Friday is to remember the passion and death of Jesus. You can think all you want that Christians fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays are hypocrites. But you don't make many friends with the Orthodox that way.

Also, John Wesley sought to reintroduce fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays to the Anglicans in his Methodist societies, and when the Methodists in North America became a separate denomination as a result of being cut off by the Church of England, he prepared a revised version of the Book of Common Prayer for them, along with liturgical instructions - it was his desire that the Methodists would attend the Anglican service known as the Litany, or at least pray the Litany in their private homes, on Wednesday and Fridays.

Unfortunately most Methodists promptly forgot about all of the Orthodox doctrine taught by John Wesley after his death, and basically turned Methodism into a Pietist and Arminian version of the Presbyterian church, albeit with an episcopal hierarchy. Not altogether that different from Moravianism on a theological level, except without some of the eccentric theological ideas of Count von Zinzendorf, but also without the unique cultural traditions among the Czech-German Moravian people, like Christingles and Christmas stars. John Wesley liked the Moravians and spent some time assisting the clergy of a Moravian community in the US, but he came to feel that several aspects of their theology were highly problematic, and thus we see him reaching out to Orthodoxy, probably because he realized that is what Saints. Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague were trying to do (they are the only Protestants presently venerated as saints by an Eastern Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church of Czechia and Slovakia.

The Didache: Proof of Deviation From Christ's Teachings by Apostolic Fathers

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