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Competent theologians may ask Respectful questions and discuss ideas that do NOT reject Magisterial teaching. Good Catholic theologians often respectfully "speculate", e.g. Hans Urs von Balthasar - to whom Pope JPG wanted to give a Red Hat. Unfortunately, he died before the Consistory at which he would have received it. Avery Dulles often wrote speculatively and received a Red Hat. The important thing is "attitude". If a qualified theologian wants to "speculate", there is a proper way to do it, i.e. theological journals etc, where they'll receive appropriate peer reviews and responses.Michelina, if that is so, what room does that leave for any theological thinking by anyone who is not part of the Magisterium?
Then what is Expressionism? I thought it was a set of philosophical, literary and artistic reactions to industrialization and urbanization.Modernism is not a "19th century philosophy". It is a 19th-20th century theological heresy that deeply infects the Church of the 21st century.
Then what is Expressionism? I thought it was a set of philosophical, literary and artistic reactions to industrialization and urbanization.
Competent theologians may ask Respectful questions and discuss ideas that do NOT reject Magisterial teaching. Good Catholic theologians often respectfully "speculate", e.g. Hans Urs von Balthasar - to whom Pope JPG wanted to give a Red Hat. Unfortunately, he died before the Consistory at which he would have received it. Avery Dulles often wrote speculatively and received a Red Hat. The important thing is "attitude". If a qualified theologian wants to "speculate", there is a proper way to do it, i.e. theological journals etc, where they'll receive appropriate peer reviews and responses.
Well yes, Expressionism produced artwork as well, but I was talking about the ideas expressed (no pun intended) in works by Franz Kafka, Georg Kaiser, Wolfgang Borchert and others, and those by their "cousins," existentialists, such as Friedrich Nietzche and Jean-Paul Sartre.http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=topsearchbox.webhome&query=Modernism+in+painting
That Modernism has nothing to do with the theological heresy, although some art critics have felt outraged by people like Manet.
It almost sounds as if the difference between modernist and not-modernist is that between being arrogant or respectful...
The Modernist as Reformer
38. It remains for Us now to say a few words about the Modernist as reformer. From all that has preceded, some idea may be gained of the reforming mania which possesses them: in all Catholicism there is absolutely nothing on which it does not fasten. Reform of philosophy, especially in the seminaries: the scholastic philosophy is to be relegated to the history of philosophy among obsolete systems, and the young men are to be taught modern philosophy which alone is true and suited to the times in which we live. Reform of theology; rational theology is to have modern philosophy for its foundation, and positive theology is to be founded on the history of dogma. As for history, it must be for the future written and taught only according to their modern methods and principles. Dogmas and their evolution are to be harmonised with science and history. In the Catechism no dogmas are to be inserted except those that have been duly reformed and are within the capacity of the people. Regarding worship, the number of external devotions is to be reduced, or at least steps must be taken to prevent their further increase, though, indeed, some of the admirers of symbolism are disposed to be more indulgent on this head. Ecclesiastical government requires to be reformed in all its branches, but especially in its disciplinary and dogmatic parts. Its spirit with the public conscience, which is not wholly for democracy; a share in ecclesiastical government should therefore be given to the lower ranks of the clergy, and even to the laity, and authority should be decentralised. The Roman Congregations, and especially the index and the Holy Office, are to be reformed. The ecclesiastical authority must change its line of conduct in the social and political world; while keeping outside political and social organization, it must adapt itself to those which exist in order to penetrate them with its spirit. With regard to morals, they adopt the principle of the Americanists, that the active virtues are more important than the passive, both in the estimation in which they must be held and in the exercise of them. The clergy are asked to return to their ancient lowliness and poverty, and in their ideas and action to be guided by the principles of Modernism; and there are some who, echoing the teaching of their Protestant masters, would like the suppression of ecclesiastical celibacy. What is there left in the Church which is not to be reformed according to their principles?
Methods of Propagandism
42. If only they had displayed less zeal and energy in propagating it! But such is their activity and such their unwearying capacity for work on behalf of their cause, that one cannot but be pained to see them waste such labour in endeavouring to ruin the Church when they might have been of such service to her had their efforts been better employed. Their articles to delude men's minds are of two kinds, the first to remove obstacles from their path, the second to devise and apply actively and patiently every instrument that can serve their purpose. They recognise that the three chief difficulties for them are scholastic philosophy, the authority of the fathers and tradition, and the magisterium of the Church, and on these they wage unrelenting war.
Exactly. Well put.One uses modern insight to seek further depth into the truths that have been handed on, the other seeks to change what has been handed on in an attempt to conform it to modern thought.
Yes, there are other "modernisms" in different fields. And they may be related in a way, inasmuch as they derive from a rejection of traditional approaches. Ultimately, 19th century philosophy with its rejection of absolutes, invisible realities and respect for tradition, is the root of many of these things.Well yes, Expressionism produced artwork as well, but I was talking about the ideas expressed (no pun intended) in works by Franz Kafka, Georg Kaiser, Wolfgang Borchert and others, and those by their "cousins," existentialists, such as Friedrich Nietzche and Jean-Paul Sartre.
GN, Theological Modernism is "fuzzy" because of its tendency to make itself impossible to pin down.
In the meantime, most of us have learned how to deal with this heresy, i.e. pay them no mind and go to trusted sources for instruction. The internet is a great help in that regard.
Globalnomad, the difference between St. Thomas Aquinas and a Modernist lies in the words "secular humanism." Rationalism imbued with faith and a sense of the sacred leaves one with great men like St. Thomas. An "arrogant" rationalistic scientism imbued with a strong secular humanism leaves us with the Jesus Seminar . . .
. . .prior to the ideological secularism of the last three centuries, there was a Christian humanism, deeply knowledgable about the ways of the world, often highly sensual, and with a great lust for life. Yet it retained an awareness, as modern secular humanism does not, of participating simultaneously in a far more spacious and dramatic world, that of God's grace and human weakness and fallibility . . .
Yes, there are other "modernisms" in different fields. And they may be related in a way, inasmuch as they derive from a rejection of traditional approaches. Ultimately, 19th century philosophy with its rejection of absolutes, invisible realities and respect for tradition, is the root of many of these things.
GN, Theological Modernism is "fuzzy" because of its tendency to make itself impossible to pin down. Pope Saint Pius X said that this heresy is like a "serpent" and hard to get a firm grip on. In colloquial American English, we would say that it is as slippery as an eel. But it is ultimately identifiable by its methodology which starts with a rejection of the clear dogmas of the Church and presents a new teaching which is proffered in substitution for Catholic doctrine. Modernism remains a major problem in the Church in America. The reforms begun by Pope JPG will take time (a generation) before their effects are felt. In the meantime, most of us have learned how to deal with this heresy, i.e. pay them no mind and go to trusted sources for instruction. The internet is a great help in that regard.
That is completely incorrect, GN. There are other heresies besides Modernism.Michelina, it is impossible to pin down BECAUSE overzealous conservatives can label any innovative thinking as "modernism".
This is not about innovative vs. "conservative". This is not about politics; it is about Catholicism and the Modernists who reject authoritative Magisterial thinking. Those who reject such teaching place themselves outside our communion.You can't pin down every innovative thinking, and you cannot think innovatively without offending some conservative in the Vatican (or on CF!) and being labelled a modernist.
That is true to an extent. I can sit in RCIA classes and watch folks speculate about the faith in the presence of my very traditional parish representatives (including myself and pastor) and they are not shunned for it - there they are respected, and its understood that conversion takes time, and intellectual roadblocks that people have are not necessarily making them heretics, but rather they need honest help. Some of these folks are life long catholics with an earnest desire to understand church teaching, and to do it by discussing what issues they have found. There they are not labeled as modernists. I don't see that attitude so much around here which is sad. I think it does more harm than good and folks should discuss these things more from the heart, guided by the gentle teaching of the church, rather than be beaten about the head with it as if it were a weapon. What can be done to fix it?Michelina, it is impossible to pin down BECAUSE overzealous conservatives can label any innovative thinking as "modernism". You can't pin down every innovative thinking, and you cannot think innovatively without offending some conservative in the Vatican (or on CF!) and being labelled a modernist. That, in the end, is my problem.
That is true to an extent. I can sit in RCIA classes and watch folks speculate about the faith in the presence of my very traditional parish representatives (including myself and pastor) and they are not shunned for it - there they are respected, and its understood that conversion takes time, and intellectual roadblocks that people have are not necessarily making them heretics, but rather they need honest help. Some of these folks are life long catholics with an earnest desire to understand church teaching, and to do it by discussing what issues they have found. There they are not labeled as modernists. I don't see that attitude so much around here which is sad. I think it does more harm than good and folks should discuss these things more from the heart, guided by the gentle teaching of the church, rather than be beaten about the head with it as if it were a weapon. What can be done to fix it?
It's true, Jason, that in real life pastoral situations, we should listen and try to undertsand their difficulties in coming to terms with things they don't understand. In fact, that is what most priests do. Only a few would walk away with no care for the health of their souls. It does happen but it is the exception rather than the rule. My experience is that we have to help them recognise where their difficulties originate.That is true to an extent. I can sit in RCIA classes and watch folks speculate about the faith in the presence of my very traditional parish representatives (including myself and pastor) and they are not shunned for it - there they are respected, and its understood that conversion takes time, and intellectual roadblocks that people have are not necessarily making them heretics, but rather they need honest help. Some of these folks are life long catholics with an earnest desire to understand church teaching, and to do it by discussing what issues they have found. There they are not labeled as modernists. I don't see that attitude so much around here which is sad. I think it does more harm than good and folks should discuss these things more from the heart, guided by the gentle teaching of the church, rather than be beaten about the head with it as if it were a weapon. What can be done to fix it?
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