The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

P1LGR1M said:

That explains why you have no sense of humor.

Click to expand...

Yeah,but I have a sense of humoUr. I like to think so anyway. I always laugh at my own jokes even though there's a disconcerting, even ECT judgemental, silence from others such as your good self.

Der Alte said:

Aren't the adversaries those who sinned willfully vs. 26 and have no more sacrifice for sins.

Click to expand...

And the point you seem to overlook is that they are adversaries.

That is precisely why the Writer equates them with, not those who do not forsake the assembling of the brethren, and not those who have not rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law, the means of relationship with God for the Hebrew People), but with those who were adversaries under Law.

They are in direct conflict with God and His will.

That's the point.

Der Alte said:

Worse punishment than death without mercy for those who were sanctified by the blood of the covenant, and considered it an unholy thing and trod underfoot the Son of God.

Click to expand...

That isn't what Scripture states:


Hebrews 10:28-29
King James Version

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


You said, "Worse punishment than death without mercy for those who were sanctified by the blood of the covenant."

Does it not make more sense when read as it is given?

Those "...who have trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the Blood of the Covenant by which He was sanctified an unholy thing?"

They are counting His death which is holy as unholy?

We don't see a Christian in danger of sorer punishment than those that rejected God's will under the Law, we are seeing people who are rejecting God's will through Christ. They reject Christ, they reject the Sacrifice which is Holy, they reject the Covenant He established with that Holy Sacrifice, and they have committed the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, which is ultimately the rejection of Christ.

They have not been sanctified by His Sacrifice and then "fall away," because in order for them to be sanctified by His Sacrifice they have to come into obedience to God's will.

And clearly they have not done that. This is spoken to them who forsake the assembling of the brethren.

It does not apply to those who have believed, and further, have believed to the saving of the soul:


Hebrews 10:38-39
King James Version

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


Those who forsake the assembling of the brethren, and reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace are adversaries. They are enemies.

The Just (Righteous) shall live by faith, and will not draw back unto perdition. They will believe unto salvation.

They will be made complete in regards to remission of sins if they are sanctified. There is no more offering for sin for those whose sins have been forgiven.

Der Alte said:

Evidently there were some who did not heed the warning.

Click to expand...

That is why the warning is given: it is difficult for us to understand what it would mean to be brought up in such a religious environment. These people ate, drank, and breathed the Covenant of Law. Turning to Christ for them was a big deal. They could be ostracized, excommunicated, and killed for turning to Christ.

We see several examples of people associating with the Church, but just as many associated with Christ during His ministry, fear of persecution made all of them deny Christ. After His resurrection there was still the danger of persecution for faith in Christ. Look at the Apostles.

It was far easier for a Jew to forsake the assembling of Christ and remain under the Law. This is why the Writer goes to the lengths he goes to in warning his Hebrew brethren not to fall away.

It is virtually impossible for Christians today to commit the sin that is in view. To crucify Christ unto one's self pictures a return to the sacrifices of the Law. Those sacrifices were type, shadow, and parable of the Sacrifice of Christ.

Der Alte said:

Evidently there are some that do NOT go on to perfection.

Click to expand...

Again, this is why the warning is given.

Read the passage again.

Back up a little and tell me how it is that people ignorant of the First Principles of Christ can be considered Christians. Men were not born again through belief in the Messiah in the Old Testament. They are born again by believing in Christ, His death, His Resurrection, and are brought into relationship with God through the New Covenant, which is ministered to unbelievers through the Ministry of the Comforter (John 16:7-9).

If they need to be taught the ABCs of the Hebrew Scriptures again, how exactly can you have them trusting Christ?

The warning is not to return to the First Principles, but to go on to perfection/completion in regards to the Doctrine of Christ.

Der Alte said:

None of this negates anything I said.

Click to expand...

Certainly it does.

One cannot be sanctified by Christ, forgiven in an eternal context—and then lose their salvation.

Just isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

That is why it is called Eternal REdemption.

Again, does everlasting mean everlasting or not?

Does Eternal mean Eternal or not?

Der Alte said:

"how much sorer [worse] punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [made holy], an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"Sanctified" was an accomplished fact. This is talking about Christians.

Click to expand...

Correct, it is an accomplished fact, but it is Christ that is made Holy through His death in this verse.

I understand why most view it as meaning it is a believer that has been sanctified, but this would mean that the teaching the Writer does in Hebrews 10:1-18 is not true.

Thre is no getting around that the New Covenant promised remission of sins and that God said He would remember their sins no more.

If they are sanctified and then become adversaries by rejecting the very elements of Eternal Redemption then we must conclude God was not being truthful when He said...


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Until the promise is received by those who are in New Covenant relationship remission of sins still depended on animal sacrifice. That is how all men prior to the establishment received remission of sins.

But after the New Covenant is established, there is no more sacrifice for sin, because the One Sacrifice was able to bring about remission of sins in perfection/completion:


Hebrews 10:14-18
King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


So, does forever mean forever, and it is impossible that God will remember sins if a Christian isn't good enough?

Or does forever not mean forever, and God will remember sins again after forgiving them?

It's one of the two.

If the Writer is speaking about born-again Christians in 10:26-29, then those sanctified by the Offering of Christ are not made complete in regards to remission of sins forever.


God bless.

Hmm said:

Yeah,but I have a sense of humoUr. I like to think so anyway. I always laugh at my own jokes even though there's a disconcerting, even ECT judgemental, silence from others such as your good self.

Click to expand...

Don't worry, I happen to like the British sense of humor.

God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

Don't worry, I happen to like the British sense of humor.

God bless.

Click to expand...

You're partially redeemed then.

I enjoy U.S. humour. It's different but equally funny!

Sad thing going on in the UK at the moment with the death of the Queen. Whatever your views on the monarchy, the death of a Queen of 70 years (she had her Platinum Jubilee this year) makes you think about mortality and concentrates the mind to that extent, as well as she seemed a good person too

Hmm said:

Yes, that's what I asked you to do, no? Explain your point (assuming you have one) to me as if I was a child. Instead of an explanation I get all this...

This is all very disappointing and bewildering. What on earth are you actually saying ???!!!!

I can't sleep until I know and it's 10:30pm in the UK so please hurry.

Click to expand...

In a nutshell, every passage used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) can be undertood to show that in view are unbelievers. In Hebrews 6:1-6, for example, the Writer rebukes Hebrews who are ignorant of the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ (Hebrews 5:10-14). Quite a stretch to imagine those the writer urges to go on unto perfection—or in other words, the more complete Doctrine of Christ we have now that the Mystery has been unveiled—are born again believers trusting in Christ. They are First Century Jews in danger of returning to the Law, hence the warning not to lay again the foundation for the ABCs of the Doctrine of Christ.

In Hebrews 3 we see that is unbelievers that do not enter into the physical rest God promised Israel. The warning is, since there still remained a rest for the people of God (the Rest Christ would bring to Israel), they (the Hebrews) should be careful not to be unbelieving, lest they too not enter into the Rest that remained to come and had come for the First Century Jew.

Each of these passages have to be carefully examined, but I have been debating these passages for quite awhile, and the bottom line is that we can trust God's Word when we are told Jesus Christ bestows Eternal Life to those who believe.

And that is it for me for the night. Going to look for some duct tape.


God bless.

Hmm said:

You're partially redeemed then.

I enjoy U.S. humour. It's different but equally funny!

Sad thing going on in the UK at the moment with the death of the Queen. Whatever your views on the monarch, the death of a Queen of 70 years makes you think about mortality and concentrates the mind to that extent.

Click to expand...

I am greatly saddened by her death. She was a woman that pictured great dignity in my view. I think she sat in a very difficult position yet has maintained her dignity through all of the many tragic events over the course of her years.

If there is royalty among men on this earth today, she was without question royalty.

I think of this...

Revelation 21:24
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

...when I think of her.

Long live the Queen.


God bless.

@P1LGR1M
Who is “we” in this verse? Christian brothers. Heb 10:19

Is this vs. not saying that Christian brothers who sin willfully will experience “judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries?”
Is this vs. not saying that anyone who was sanctified by the blood, i.e. a Christian, who treads that blood underfoot and considers it an unholy thing is deserving of worse punishment than the Jews who despised Moses law?
“Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” This is all referring to the one who was sanctified by the blood in. vs.29.

P1LGR1M said:

I am greatly saddened by her death. She was a woman that pictured great dignity in my view. I think she sat in a very difficult position yet has maintained her dignity through all of the many tragic events over the course of her years.

If there is royalty among men on this earth today, she was without question royalty.

I think of this...

Revelation 21:24
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

...when I think of her.

Long live the Queen.


God bless.

Click to expand...

That's a very nice sentiment. I'm not particularly a Royalist but when I look at politics in my own country as well as those abroad with its cynicism and "post-truth" state, I think maybe the monarchy does stand for something different. But then I think of Prince Andrew and think perhaps not!

It's at times like this though, when all human institutions, including the institution of the immediate, let alone the Royal, family fails that we may realise that our security comes from God alone.

Okay, absolutely last post for the night.

Der Alte said:

@P1LGR1M
Hebrews 10:25-30
(25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,Who is “we” in this verse? Christian brothers. Heb 10:19

Click to expand...

No, actually it the Hebrews that this Hebrew is writing to.

The sin in view is a rejection of the New Covenant.

While it is possible for men to associate with the Church the test of time reveals the truth as to the reality of their belief.

Forsaking the assembling of the brethren doesn't simply mean someone stopped going to church, it means that they have rejected exactly what the Writer lists: Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace.

And again, I point out that they are not contrasted with believers, but with the unbelievers of the Covenant of Law.

This is why he makes it a point in Hebrews 10:15-18 to point out to his Hebrew brethren that Christ is the fulfillment of God's promise for the New Covenant and remission of sins in completion.

Just read the chapter a few times, Der Alte.

Der Alte said:

Hebrews 10:19
(19) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Click to expand...

And what is the Holiest?


Hebrews 9:7-9
King James Version

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


The earthly tabernacle was a parable of the true.

The way into the Holiest of All, the true Holy of Holies—was not yet available to men.


Hebrews 9:23-24
King James Version

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


There's the True Holy of Holies: Heaven.

And how is access to the True Holy of Holies made possible:



Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Now, does the fact that the veil of the Temple was a figure, a parable, a shadow of Christ's death make more sense to First Century Jews under the Law, or 21st Century Christians who don't really have a clue about the Covenant of Law?

It is an explanation to people (Hebrews) who understand the significance of the veil of the Temple. It is they who need to understand that entrance to God is no longer limited to the Great High Priest who entered into God's presence within the veil, but has been opened to all men through the Veil that cloth pictured: Jesus' flesh which He died in.

Ii iis just another way to say "You can only go to Heaven through that Veil, that is through His flesh, that is, through His death.

It is not saying he is speaking to born-again believers exclusively.

Der Alte said:

(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.Is this vs. not saying that Christian brothers who sin willfully will experience “judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries?”

Click to expand...

No, because we are 1) not adversaries, we are the children of God, and 2) we will not suffer the fate or the punishment of those that know not God and obey not the Gospel.

IT is pretty obvious that it is speaking of those who reject Christ.

Der Alte said:

(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?Is this vs. not saying that anyone who was sanctified by the blood, i.e. a Christian, who treads that blood underfoot and considers it an unholy thing is deserving of worse punishment than the Jews who despised Moses law?

Click to expand...

No, it is saying those who reject the New Covenant and its elements will be held more accountable than their Old Testament equivalent, both of which are unbelievers.

These are they that do not believe to the saving of the soul, or in other words unto salvation. THey aren't saved.

I know most view the sanctification in view to be speaking of those who are adversaries, but just as most believe the perfection of Hebrews 5:14 (translated "full age" in the KJV) refers to maturity, I disagree with that interpretation, and view it as a reference to those who have exercised their senses to discern good and evil.

Difficult passages, but to conclude loss of salvation is in direct conflict with what Scripture teaches elsewhere, hence it is an invalid interpretation.

Der Alte said:

(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.“Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” This is all referring to the one who was sanctified by the blood in. vs.29.

Click to expand...

The Sacrifice of Christ is the Sanctified Sacrifice of the New Covenant. You have to understand the importance of the New Covenant as it is contrasted with the Covenant of Law in the Book of Hebrews.

Here is another Priest being sanctified by the blood of the sacrifice:


Leviticus 8:30
King James Version

30 And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.


Now read the Book of Hebrews and keep in mind the contrast drawn between the Law and its elements and the New Covenant and its elements.

It's not as crazy as it might seem, lol.

Sanctification is not just a matter of being made holy, it is also a matter of being set apart unto God.

Christ is made perfect/complete as our Great High Priest through the death He died in our stead:


Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.


Hebrews 5
King James Version

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.


8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ is the Offering and the High Priest.


God bless.

Hmm said:

That's a very nice sentiment. I'm not particularly a Royalist but when I look at politics in my own country as well as those abroad with its cynicism and "post-truth" state, I think maybe the monarchy does stand for something different. But then I think of Prince Andrew and think perhaps not!

It's at times like this though, when all human institutions, including the institution of the immediate, let alone the Royal, family fails that we may realise that our security comes from God alone.

Click to expand...

I can only say that I think she carried herself with dignity as is expected of a Queen. Dignity is something that has gone the way of the dinosaur in my country concerning its leaders.

And yes, I mean that as it is more Hollywood than anything else (Jurassic Park—way of the dinosaur—yes sometimes I do explain my own humor...).

Don't ask me why, but I am sincere in saying that I am greatly saddened by her death.


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

Absolutely.

That there will be differing degrees of punishment can be seen here:

Click to expand...

So... those not predestined to life are predestined to eternal incineration?
Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Saint Steven said: ↑
And those who were not called?
What do they get as their punishment for not being called?
Does the "punishment" fit the "crime"?

P1LGR1M said:

I can only say that I think she carried herself with dignity as is expected of a Queen. Dignity is something that has gone the way of the dinosaur in my country concerning its leaders.

And yes, I mean that as it is more Hollywood than anything else (Jurassic Park—way of the dinosaur—yes sometimes I do explain my own humor...).

Don't ask me why, but I am sincere in saying that I am greatly saddened by her death.


God bless.

Click to expand...

Here's a YouTube video from The Guardian that celebrates the Queen's sense of humour for anyone feeling sad about this, as I am (to my surprise):

Saint Steven said:

So... those not predestined to life are predestined to eternal incineration?

Click to expand...

It seems you think I am a Calvinist. I am not. Like most systems of Theology, Calvinism teaches some things I would be in agreement with, such as Eternal Security and the Depravity of Man.

However, I am not a hyper-literalist and I do not embrace the hyper-literal view that there are those who are elect unto damnation. I believe that when it states God so loved the world it is referring to mankind in general, not a (S)Elect Few.

I do acknowledge though, that only the Elect will be saved. It's a no-brainer, "Only those who will be saved will be saved."

I also acknowledge that while there is a general Fatherhood of God over mankind, because Adam was made in His image and likeness (and through procreation we are made in the image and likeness of our fathers), but that is not to be confused with becoming children of God, or, sons of God in the New Covenant meaning.

In order to become sons of God we must be born again. Born of God. Born from above. That is a group unique to this Age and began at Pentecost when Christ began baptizing with the Holy Ghost. This is the process by which men and women are immersed into God. It is also a p[rocess of God indwelling us, and this in an eternal context.

Having said all that, I also acknowledge that God has at all times in History provided revelation to man that he know God's will for His life. God does this in three primary ways:

1. The Testimony of Creation: Romans 1:19-20;

2. Internal Witness (not to be confused with the conscious): Romans 2:14-15;

3. Direct Revelation:

a. God speaking directly to man: Genesis 3:1; Matthew 3:17; Matthew 17:5

b. God speaking to men through men: Deuteronomy 18:18; Judges 6:8; Matthew 3:11-12.

c. God speaking to men through His Word: 2 Chronicles 25:4; Nehemiah 8:3.


I acknowledge that God will give every man and woman an opportunity to come into obedience to His will as expressed in that revelation He has consistently provided to man through History.

I acknowledge that every man and woman will stand before God in judgment, both of the redeemed and of the unredeemed, and will give an account of their response to that revelation they were provided with.

I speculate that God's grace will be bestowed to those who did not have opportunity to respond to these three primary forms of revelation, such as unborn babes that either die or are killed in the womb, those mentally impaired by physical trauma, and even those who have been indoctrinated by cultures so religious that the Gospel was withheld under threat of death.

But all will receive of the revelation of God to the point where they will be held accountable. When the Son of God came unto Israel, we do not read that He came to some of His people, nor does His testimony impart a selective audience. He came unto His Own, and that is all inclusive of the Lost Sheep of Israel.

As I said, it is a no-brainer that only the saved will be saved. It is a no-brainer that the omniscient Eternal God knows aforehand who the Elect are. But, God is Just in all His dealings with men, and there will not be the first person that stands before Him who will be able to say, "But—you didn't tell me!"

Saint Steven said:

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Click to expand...

From His wrath, yes. That could be phrased as "being saved from God:"


Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


The argument appeals to emotion, not justice.

I was "saved" from my mom and dad untold times when I was a kid. Both had only my best interest in view, but, I have always had a knack for incurring wrath.

Saint Steven said:

Saint Steven said: ↑
And those who were not called?
What do they get as their punishment for not being called?
Does the "punishment" fit the "crime"?

Click to expand...

There simply isn't one who has been born, or will be born—that God has withheld His grace from.

As I said before, there will be differing degrees of punishment, and to be honest, the worst punishment is the separation itself. The eternal "if only."

When we consider "the blackness of darkness" we should keep in mind that "darkness" is representative in Scripture of man's separation from God. Death is a form of separation and death is something we are all born into.

As presented before, this...


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


First, I would point out another no-brainer here: if someone rejects Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace (which in New Covenant Doctrine of Christ is a reference to the Comforter and His Ministry of Conviction)—there remains no other sacrifice these Hebrews (or anyone, in the broader application of the teaching) can turn to.

For the Hebrew People, it would have been difficult to step away from what you had been brought up from birth believing and practicing. A modern parallel would be the Muslim indoctrinated in his religion who has never stepped outside of a community that rejects Christ (and they do).

So let me just ask you one question: can you answer the Writer, and express your views about whether you think someone who rejects Christ, His Sacrifice (going so far as to call it unclean and unholy, common, and a common death), His Covenant (expressed as the means of relationship with God), and His efforts through the Spirit directly to these individuals to convince them that they are sinners, Christ is righteous, and that they will be judged—should be judged more severely than those who did not receive the understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel and direct revelation from God directly to their hearts about Who Jesus Christ is?

Could you answer the Writer's—and the Holy Ghost's—question?

We see the ministry of the Comforter here also:


Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


The ministry of the Comforter is first and foremost the ministry of God directly to the hearts of—unbelievers (John 16:7-9).

Within the Operation of God in revealing truth (which is something He has always done, as evidenced by the testimony of the Word of God) men and women are enlightened that they might understand truth. Through this ministry, they taste of the Heavenly Gift (the Promised Spirit). They "partake of the Spirit" within this ministry. They taste of the good Word of God, the Gospel, and the powers of the world to come (for the Hebrew People that would have had a first reference to the Millennial Kingdom, known to them as the Restored Kingdom, also referenced as the Reformation by Christ).

But, if they reject that Ministry, and return to the first principles of the Doctrine of Christ, rejecting the more complete Doctrine of Christ (Hebrews 6:1), they "crucify Christ unto themselves again" because when they offer up the sacrifices of the Law they repeat the type, the shadow, the parable that those sacrifices were. They were a picture of Christ's Sacrifice. Thus they do not actually crucify Christ again, because that Offering was made once and only needed to be offered once, but to themselves, they crucify Christ in type again.

My answer to the question of the Writer in Hebrews 10:29 is, "I suppose they do deserve a more severe punishment because they were given more than men and women were in the Old Testament."

And sorry, first post of the day, so unavoidable longwindedness.


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

However, I am not a hyper-literalist and I do not embrace the hyper-literal view that there are those who are elect unto damnation. I believe that when it states God so loved the world it is referring to mankind in general, not a (S)Elect Few.

I do acknowledge though, that only the Elect will be saved. It's a no-brainer, "Only those who will be saved will be saved."

Click to expand...

Perhaps you aren't clear about the source and reach of salvation.
It all hangs on the acts of two men, Adam and Christ. (the second Adam)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

P1LGR1M said:

That is what happens to every man and woman that rejects Christ, His Covenant, His sacrifice, and the ministry of the Spirit of Grace.

Click to expand...

Even if that were true, not everyone has had the opportunity to receive or reject. What about them?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

P1LGR1M said:

I believe that when it states God so loved the world it is referring to mankind in general, not a (S)Elect Few.

Click to expand...

I agree.
You are just one step away from Ultimate Redemption.(UR)

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

@P1LGR1M
Reposting this from a previous post. You talked all around it but totally ignored what I said,
Who is “we” in this verse? Christian brothers. Heb 10:19

This vs. is saying that Christian brothers who sin willfully will experience “judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
This vs. is saying that anyone who was sanctified by the blood, i.e. a Christian, who treads that blood underfoot and considers it an unholy thing is deserving of worse punishment than the Jews who despised Moses law!
“Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, The Lord shall judge his people. [Jews and Christian NOT unrepentant sinners] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” This is all referring those who were sanctified by the blood in. vs.29. The writer of Hebrews is talking to and warning Christians. The sinners of his day would not read or hear any of this.

Saint Steven said:

Perhaps you aren't clear about the source and reach of salvation.

Click to expand...

I like to think I've been very clear.

Saint Steven said:

It all hangs on the acts of two men, Adam and Christ. (the second Adam)

Click to expand...

Sorry, but salvation doesn't "hang on the act Adam." Salvation has only One Name that everything hangs on.

Saint Steven said:

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Click to expand...

Once again the context of Paul's teaching is removed.


Romans 5
King James Version

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Overlooked is the fact that salvation requires faith in Christ. It is by that faith we have access into the "grace wherein we stand."

We have peace with God and are justified by faith.

The lost do not have faith in Christ, they are not justified, they do not have peace with God, and they do not stand in the grace of God.


5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Have the lost received the Holy Ghost? If one does not have the Spirit of God, if one does not have the Spirit of Christ, if one does not have the Spirit—they don't belong to God.


9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Salvation shows we are no longer enemies. We are reconciled to God. We beseech men to be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:18-21).

Men must be reconciled to God in this life. That is who Paul is speaking about.


12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Death, not sin—passed to all men through "Adam's act." All sin because they are conveived and born separated from God. All men are born without life, because no man can have life except he eat of the flesh and drink of the blood of Christ (John 6:53).


15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Doesn't say it has abounded unto all. But unto many. Now we can excuse the use of "many" in regards to those who have already died, and not find a parallel, because not everyone who will die has died yet. However, the ones that the grace of God and the gift by grace has abounded to are many, not all.




16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


Salvation is the reverse of the condemnation all men are born into: one sin unto many deaths, and many offenses unto one gift.

It doesn't imply that "one man sinned and all men were condemned, but the free gift is all sins will lead to justification."



17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Who are they that receive the gift? Back up and you will see.

Only those that receive the grace of God and the gift by the grace of God are in view.



18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Doesn't mean all men have been, or will be justified unto life, it means that the gift is available to all men.

Therefore as by the offense of one upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one upon all men unto justification of life.

Condemnation comes to all men by the one offense of one, and justification unto life comes to all men by the righteousness of one.

And how does that justification unto life come? Paul starts this chapter out stating how and who is justified (Romans 5:1).


19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Again, many will be made righteous, not all.

This is not a proof text for universal salvation, nor does it deny the many passages and verses that state there will be those who remain under condemnation and will not see life:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Only those who believe in Christ will be justified and no longer under condemnation:


Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


So I ask you, does Scripture make it clear that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are still under the condemnation of Romans 5?


God bless.

Saint Steven said:

Even if that were true, not everyone has had the opportunity to receive or reject. What about them?

Click to expand...

I already addressed that:

P1LGR1M said:

I speculate that God's grace will be bestowed to those who did not have opportunity to respond to these three primary forms of revelation, such as unborn babes that either die or are killed in the womb, those mentally impaired by physical trauma, and even those who have been indoctrinated by cultures so religious that the Gospel was withheld under threat of death.

Click to expand...

I see a Basic Bible Principle in Scripture that God has always judged men according to the revelation He provides to them and would go so far as to say I believe He judges according to their understanding of that revelation, rather than "to the letter," so to speak. Meaning mentally challenged people will still be held accountable according to the ability of their mind to understand.

Saint Steven said:

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Click to expand...

Just as in Romans 5, the context is overlooked and the fact that Paul is speaking to and about those who are in Christ.

Glorification is specific to the Church alone.


1 Corinthians 15:14-18
King James Version

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


How can we apply this passage to those who do not have faith in Jesus Christ?

We can't, it is that simple.

He doesn't say "Then everyone who has died has perished if Christ is not risen and your faith is in vain," but specifies those of the Church.

Only those of the Church can apply the teaching of this passage concerning glorification to their resurrection. It is simply not universal.


1 Corinthians 15:22-23
King James Version

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


It is another Basic Bible Principle that having life requires being in Christ. Here we see again the context is specific to those who are in Christ. It is simply not universal.

In order to have victory over death one must be in Christ:


1 Corinthians 15:57-58
King James Version

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


We can't generalize teachings to make them fit our systems of belief. Our beliefs must conform to what the revelation God has given us.


God bless.

Saint Steven said:

I agree.
You are just one step away from Ultimate Redemption.(UR)

Click to expand...

lol

I always appreciate humor.

Saint Steven said:

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Click to expand...

Again, taken out of context:


1 John 2
King James Version

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


John's point is that His Atonement is effective for the entire world, not that it is applied to the whole world. We would have to remove everything he says about those who are not in Christ and how we know that we are in Christ.

Verse 1 identifies those he is writing to, those he has "begotten" through the Gospel, so to speak. His point is "This is how we know we are in Him."

He, Christ, is the propitiation for sins for the entire world. Another no-brainer: Christ's Sacrifice is sufficient to save everyone, but it doesn't change all of the many passages that show that not everyone will receive life or that those Christ said would remain condemned won't be.

You simply have to remove everything else John teaches to give it a universal application:


15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


John makes it clear throughout this Epistle that there are those who are not of God, and do not have the love of God.

Yes, God loves the world enough to die in their stead, but, He does not just apply that in conflict with His demand that men believe in His Son.


1 John 3:23-24
King James Version

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


It is basic to the Gospel that men must obey the Gospel and believe in Jesus Christ.

Those who don't will never see life:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Continued...