• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

chingchang

Newbie
Jul 17, 2008
2,038
101
New Braunfels, Texas
✟25,259.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian

I think you've missed my point. That is o.k. though...I'm still working on my written communication skills. I certainly would never advocated "trying to get out of something" Jesus has commanded us to do. You and I differ on several issues...and that is o.k. I'll just chalk-it-up as a Romans 14-thing and move-on.

Hugs Brother,
chingchang
 
Upvote 0

Nadiine

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2006
52,800
48,336
Obama: 53% deserve him ;)
✟292,219.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I dunno...I get the feeling that the Most High God isn't into setting-up flamming hoops for us to jump through
No? Have you ever read the OT?
God absolutely sets up standards for His people to live by; and ALL people to live by.

liberty "sounds liberal", so let's just flush moral laws down the toilet! lol


It's PAUL who taught on liberties - & Paul is the one who taught grace -
and have you even read about liberties? We aren't even free to practice
a liberty if it can cause somebody else trouble/confusion...
1 Corinthians 8:9
But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow
become a stumbling block to the weak.

The liberties often pertained to the CEREMONIAL rituals & laws that Christ fulfilled by His sacrifice - circumcision wasn't mandatory anymore as other ritualistic practices - they were free from all those works now.
LIBERTY.
They aren't license to sin, they're things Christ relieved us from and in the NT, what we can do under grace that are in "grayer" categories that COULD lead to sin or not snare us; either/or.

ie. drinking, gambling, wearing makeup, dress code, secular music,
dancing, etc. Not "theft, lying, kidnapping, abortion, premarital sex, incest, adultery, gossip, slander, hatred, murder, abuse, blasphemy, rape, etc. that are spelled out in detail.

Obeying God's moral code isn't legalism; that's one of the biggest
errors I see in this liberal worldview; anything obedient turns into
stuffy fundy/phariseeism.
Is not lying to someone or stealing from them a fundy thing?
no.

When you can prove the moral law of the OT is removed & gone,
you'll have a case and not until.
Most don't have the slightest clue how law works (even when it's
been explained several times in these types of threads) -

Show me the moral laws have been reversed. And why isn't
beastility listed in the NT anywhere; is that one ok to practice?
God's ok with it?
 
Reactions: PeacaHeaven
Upvote 0

Nadiine

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2006
52,800
48,336
Obama: 53% deserve him ;)
✟292,219.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
really?
Love is defined BY laws!
Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Those moral laws ARE love to God and others -
they keep you from harming others thru what is evil.

If you don't rape, don't take another person's spouse, don't murder, don't steal from others, don't abuse/use/misuse someone's body, covet their things, etc., then you ARE loving them.

How do you have love MINUS moral laws that protect us all?
 
Reactions: PeacaHeaven
Upvote 0

HuntingMan

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,341
143
59
✟9,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, bear in mind that Romans 14 is about things NOT defined as 'sin' already...such as drinking wine and meats. It isnt a permission to ignore any instruction that DOES define sin or disobedience....
 
Upvote 0

HuntingMan

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,341
143
59
✟9,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It would seem that Paul already dealt with this 'all things are lawful' error in his letters to the Corinthians....




(Pro 14:12 KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(Pro 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
 
Upvote 0

Armistead

Veteran
Aug 11, 2007
1,852
91
62
NC
✟2,439.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution

And that moral law as James tells us is LOVE fulfills all the law ---WHY?
Because it "seeks no harm".

You fail to understand we obey those things that are wrong because they harm our fellow man. God's moral laws all abide in the concept of love.

Love is not defined by LAW...Law is defined by love....you got it backward.

You guys keep saying we use this to promote sin...We never say that.
We use the law of love to know what sin is..instead of abiding in legal codes of man to define sin. Any command Jesus, Paul, ect..gave us, they did so because they insure man not harming man.

I agree we should not be a stumbling block. I wouldn't drink in front of an alcoholic that would be tempted. OTT, I decide what is sin based on one principle...will my actions cause harm to another or deny one true God. If not...I feel free to act without guilt. Do I sometimes fail...sure, but I try never to harm anyone....that fulfills ALL the law.
 
Upvote 0

HuntingMan

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,341
143
59
✟9,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And that moral law as James tells us is LOVE fulfills all the law ---WHY?
Because it "seeks no harm".
And who defines 'harm'...you?
GOD defines it, not man.

You fail to understand we obey those things that are wrong because they harm our fellow man.
Again, who defines 'harm' ?
GODs word shows that gay sex is quite harmful as it is abomination.
Gays claim that they arent harming anyone.
Apparently what MAN thinks is harmless is quite harmful...

(Pro 14:12 KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(Pro 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
 
Upvote 0

Nadiine

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2006
52,800
48,336
Obama: 53% deserve him ;)
✟292,219.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And that moral law as James tells us is LOVE fulfills all the law ---WHY?
Because it "seeks no harm".
It tells you that those laws encompass love - that was their whole point.
It gave protection & guidance to the people without them even realizing
that it was for their health, preservation, spiritual health and physical
wellbeing.
It was when they disobeyed that the troubles seem to come.

You fail to understand we obey those things that are wrong because they harm our fellow man. God's moral laws all abide in the concept of love.
I don't FAIL to realize that, my point is that those laws are in place
to JUDGE those who violate others.
OR when a Christian commits them, they must repent & seek to stop
committing it.

Don't turn this into legalism when that's NOT what I said or meant.
The point of me saying what I did was to prove that moral law
IS LOVE. And it stands to judge the lost and we're ALL as humans
commanded to abide by it; it was never dismantled & done away with.

& the fact that the Pharisees followed letter of law (even when it
would cause people to die if followed), proved they loved no one, but
followed law becuz of them being "rules" alone.
Laws were placed above caring for people - & since they obeyed them
so well, it caused pride and loathing of others less "holy"....

Love is not defined by LAW...Law is defined by love....you got it backward.
They are a pair - the law reflects LOVE - where God gives grace for
us not to 'be under the law' (penalty of law & what He fulfilled in
ceremonial laws: clean/unclean, sacrificing, rituals, etc.) the moral law steps in to correct when we violate it.

(in bold) YES -
I know full well the argument raised by Paul in Grace & Law.
But the lost ARE under the full measure of the Law however becuz they
rejected their sacrifice & covering for sin.
There are 2 ways: Grace & law. All people are either under the law of Christ - or under written Law.

I agree we should not be a stumbling block. I wouldn't drink in front of an alcoholic that would be tempted. OTT, I decide what is sin based on one principle...will my actions cause harm to another or deny one true God.
(to the red emphasis)
The problem is, you're also corrupted by that sin becuz you have a sin nature; so placing yourself as the decider of sin is a HUGE problem.
(to the bold emphasis)
& you miss one of theee biggest harms - giving people eternal security
thru Universalism. Telling the lost not to worry that they enter heaven
later on anyways -- WHEN THEY DON'T.
Jesus & several of the NT authors gave specific warnings about the
afterlife - and you're quenching the warnings by giving escape clauses.

That is the worst harm that could probly ever be done.

If not...I feel free to act without guilt. Do I sometimes fail...sure, but I try never to harm anyone....that fulfills ALL the law.
Harm.... based on your opinion of it.
I base mine on God's ENTIRE word that gives warning after warning
about separation from God.
 
Reactions: PeacaHeaven
Upvote 0

chingchang

Newbie
Jul 17, 2008
2,038
101
New Braunfels, Texas
✟25,259.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Nadiine,

I was starting to think what we have here is a "the glass is half full"..."no, the glass is half empty" argument...but instead I am now fully convinced that we have a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is teaching us. That said...I can't bring anything to the table that will change your understanding...because you too are fully convinced and you have been taught a specific way with a specific emphasis from an early age (per your "about me").

You said..."Since beliefs don't change reality, it's important to be open to TRUTH even if we dislike it."

Ahhh...but beliefs DO change one's reality...since reality is relative to the individual. Your reality is obviously different from mine based on your beliefs. It seems to me from your statement above that you are preaching to us that are "in error". That is...you have the "TRUTH" that we need to be open to. Have you considered that occasionally it can work the other way? Do you have nothing left to learn? I can't tell you how exciting my life is because God is continually teaching me something new via his Holy Spirit. Is that happening in your life...or are you just telling people "TRUTH"...even if they dislike it?

I'm sure we'll meet again in another thread...but for this one I retire.

Hugs Sister,
chingchang

 
Upvote 0

Nadiine

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2006
52,800
48,336
Obama: 53% deserve him ;)
✟292,219.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I think you're misunderstanding my statement.
If you think the world is FLAT, does it make that true in Reality for you?
Does the earth in fact, "go flat" for you?
No, the earth WILL stay round contrary to your all-wise opinion.

False teachings regarding God's words & truths dont' MAKE THEM TRUE
just becuz you believe them; sincerety doesn't make truth.
Somebody who claims God doesn't exist certainly isn't changing reality
any - as if it makes God nonexistant all of a sudden.
Or as if God doesn't exist "for them" but He does exist for others....
Someone's right & someone's wrong; both are not true.

I didn't say reality cannot change - but opinions & beliefs don't make
anything true realistically.

Your reality is obviously different from mine based on your beliefs.
Reality is what it is based on FACTS/what is true.

Now maybe you mean that the way I live is based on what I believe -
like if I believe adultery is sin, I won't live that way - & if you think fornication's fine, you'll live that way -
so our 'realities' are different? Not sure I grasp what you mean here.

It seems to me from your statement above that you are preaching to us that are "in error". That is...you have the "TRUTH" that we need to be open to. Have you considered that occasionally it can work the other way?
Yes I have considered that - I consider it every single day.

But UNTIL you base your information ON GOD'S TEACHINGS, you will
not get me to change them.
In other words, present a proper position that aligns with what is
so clearly written in scripture - without contradicting it everywhere else, and you'll have more consideration. but not until.

Do you have nothing left to learn? I can't tell you how exciting my life is because God is continually teaching me something new via his Holy Spirit. Is that happening in your life...or are you just telling people "TRUTH"...even if they dislike it?
Well no offense, but alot of people make these claims as to the Spirit
leading them - while they promote sin & false teaching everywhere else.
Or the fruit is rotten --
Many times people mistake their own leading & learning for the Spirit's. It's not my call to make - but it just doesn't prove anything except
that you believe that.
(the same would be true if I made this same claim).
 
Reactions: PeacaHeaven
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.