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IntoTheCrimsonSky

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Hi Everyone,

I recently bought a book called 'A New Translation: The Dead Sea Scrolls' (You can find it at amazon here). To be honest, I don't know much about them. My Pastor suggested putting priority on reading the Bible fully before focusing too much on something like that, which is understandable.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone here has read this book..and if so, what did you think of it? I'm always nervous buying something that I know is not clearly Adventist, because I am still fairly new to the Bible and scripture.

Also, how important do you guys consider the dead sea scrolls? Are they more commentary on the Bible, or nearly as important? Any thoughts or suggestions or anything you guys have to say about them would be appreciated. I know I'm not being too specific here, but it's just something I'd love to discuss.

Blessings and Love,
Sarah
 
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TrustAndObey

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Sarah, I don't know a lot about the book or the scrolls honestly.

I do know I saw a post in GT that the scrolls had been deemed falsified, but I have no idea if that's true or not.

It's one of those things, if they go against what modern-day Churchianity tries to teach, it will be disregarded as false by most.

I already have too many books on my "wish list" for reading this summer, but let us know how it is, okay?
 
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IntoTheCrimsonSky

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Thanks for replying.

I'll defanitly talk about it when I get a chance to read enough of it. I've worried about them being false, myself, but I've also heard certain people speak of them in a way that makes them sound reliable (Pastor Doug Batchelor, for one). That's why I was hoping someone on here might know a bit about them, from an Adventist point of view.

I guess that's true, though. If I were to find anything that goes against my knowledge of scripture, then I'd put up some alarms about them. Kinda like that "Book of Judas" they supposedly found awhile back. The things it spoke of were so not what the Bible speaks of.

I remember one thing about that book that claimed Jesus asked Judas to betray Him, so that He could die for us. Asked Him to do what lead to his suicide?!?! I couldn't believe it. Sad thing is..I know a few people who embrassed that as making perfect sense.

Blessings and love,
Sarah
 
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Jimlarmore

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Falsifiability is a Popperian term in science that is applied to a theory. If something is not falsifiable it's not considered as valid. I would like to see how they determined the dead sea scrolls to be falsified. I did some research on them a few years back and at that point they were confirmed to be the age of the Assenes ( ms ) the keepers of the canon and Biblical writings of that time.

The way I see it if the dead sea scrolls were truely falsified as not being legitimate it would make world wide news and you would see several T.V. shows on it. That to my knowledge has not happened. Anyone can say anything in a debate or discussion but that does not make it true.

Otherwise in my opinion the dead sea scrolls are one of the most fantastic modern day finds to support the Bible as we know it, ( the old testament anyway ). What we have in the KJV is almost a word for word translational read of the books in the dead sea scrolls.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Sophia7

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A little background info may help to answer your questions, Sarah. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of documents found in caves in the 1940s and 50s near a place called Qumran by the shore of the Dead Sea. These manuscripts are believed by many scholars to have been written, copied, or collected by a sect of Jews called the Essenes, between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D. They include portions of every Old Testament book except for Esther, as well as extra-biblical and apocryphal works.

They are important from a Christian perspective because the biblical fragments are older than any other manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures that have been discovered. They also provide background information on Jewish beliefs and practices of that time period.
Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic texts dating to 9th century. The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back to the 2nd century BC. Before the discovery, the oldest Greek manuscripts such as Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus were the earliest extant versions of biblical manuscripts. Although some of the biblical manuscripts found at Qumran differ significantly from the Masoretic text, most do not. The scrolls thus provide new variants and the ability to be more confident of those readings where the Dead Sea manuscripts agree with the Masoretic text or with the early Greek manuscripts.

Further, the sectarian texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls, most of which were previously unknown, offer new light on one form of Judaism practiced during the Second Temple period.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls)
See these other links for more info:
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls.htm
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/
 
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JonMiller

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My understanding is that the dead sea scrolls are from a different religious community then the Christians, from around the time of Christ. Note that they had their own beliefs, etc. I dont' think that they have any NT stuff, rather it is OT stuff...

There is 'weird' (apocryphical) jewish stuff there also, I beleive.

Anyways, interesting stuff to be sure, but Christianity is based on the Bible. You could also look at the Gospel of Judas or of Thomas or the like for other views from long ago. Note that they weren't included int he Bible for a reason (a lot are very gnostic!).

JM
 
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Sophia7

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Did you read my post? The Dead Sea Scrolls were written/collected/copied by Jews. All of the OT books of the Bible are represented in them except for Esther. I also mentioned why they are significant for Christians.
 
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JonMiller

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Did you read my post? The Dead Sea Scrolls were written/collected/copied by Jews. All of the OT books of the Bible are represented in them except for Esther. I also mentioned why they are significant for Christians.


I replied before I read your post. I see that you did better then I.

JM
 
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IntoTheCrimsonSky

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Some really good points made here.I hadn't considered that it woulda been more of a public knowledge had there been any proof of them not being accurate. It makes sense, though. They are talked of as a important thing.

Thanks for the input.


Wow! Thanks tons. Lots of great info there. A lot of which I didn't know. I'll check out the links, too. Very much appreciated.


I think that's one of the things I was interested in..how close to the Bible are they when you read the translation. The problem I run into though, is how accurate is the 'translation' itself.

I do worry about the new gospels that have come out. I have a feeling God left them out because they were not entirely of His Spirit, from what I've heard of them. I don't put much interest into them right now..



Which reminds me. I heard of a theory that the same group that wrote them, were possibly where John The Baptist spent some time learning. Apparently the book he quotes a lot was very important to them, along with the water baptism and a few other practises and beliefs he followed. Anyone heard of this?

Blessings and Love,
Sarah
 
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SummaScriptura

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I'm wondering how your research has progressed?

Personally, I think there is much that can be of blessing to Bible-believing Christians in the DSS.

You will find however, the various collections of DSS translations in print differ in the fragments/books covered and the amount of material deemed relevant by the compiler of the collection of translations. As it turns out, "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls" is one of the least complete!

Here is a side-by-side comparison I did between 3 translations of a DSS recovered book, "The Book of the Giants".

http://www.thebookofenoch.info/book_of_giants.html
 
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thecountrydoc

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Hi Sarah,

Here is somthing that should be of help in understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was written by Pastor John Anderson who is an expert in biblical laguages. Because of the length this will be posted in two parts.


Your brother in Christ,
Doc




What’s The Fuss About the Scrolls?


By Pastor John Anderson*


I Thess 2:13


Isaiah 40:6, 8 “The Voice said, ‘Cry out!’ And he said ‘What shall I cry?’ ‘All flesh is grass, and all its loveliness is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.’”

Some of us are going tomorrow to see the Dead Sea Scrolls. I hope if you can’t go tomorrow, you’ll take the chance to see them before they leave San Diego (which will be at the end of the year). This will be truly a once in a life-time experience. The scrolls represent a significant find of the Scriptures (“writings&#8221 which compose what we call the Bible (“book&#8221.

Before sin, God communicated with man directly. But with the entrance of sin, a curtain fell. “Your sins have separated you from your God.” Isaiah 59:2. Because of His great love, however, God did not leave man without hope and without information about Him and His plan. At first He revealed Himself through prophets, like Adam, Enoch and Abraham, who spoke His words. This oral packaging of God’s Word was sufficient for centuries, even millennia, and was passed down from father to son. There weren’t that many links needed in the chain before the flood! For 930 years Adam witnessed for the truth, nearly to the time of Noah.

Those who think the “caveman” model represents our early ancestors would be shocked to know the truth. Those men and women were mighty in intellect, both in reasoning powers and in retention. There’s a reason the recording of information was not invented until later. It wasn’t needed! The “caveman” model is precisely backwards of what the truth is. How insulted they would be to hear that their great grandchildren of today picture them that way! The minds of mankind today are puny when compared to the mental powers those giants possessed.

And so as time passed, along with length of years, physical stature and genetic strength, the mental faculties of mankind decreased.

Therefore, in order to have written records, the Sumerians, that is those who settled in Mesopotamia, developed their pictograms, which were called cuneiform because of their wedge shapes, and Egyptians developed their pictograms called hieroglyphics (a name given by Greeks many centuries after,) because ieros means temple or priest, or holy (our word “hierarchy” comes from it) and “carvings”, although economics and politics may have had as much to the development of their writing. The point was, a “short pencil is worth more than a long memory.”

However, pictograms have their limitations. One had to be familiar with literally hundreds of them in order to be proficient.

When did alphabetic writing begin? Dr. John Coleman Darnell, an Egyptologist at Yale University reported in 1999 about a discovery recently in Egypt. “Carved in the cliffs of soft stone, the writing, in a Semitic script with Egyptian influences, has been dated to somewhere between 1900 and 1800 B.C., two or three centuries earlier than previously recognized uses of a nascent alphabet. The first experiments with an alphabet thus appeared to be the work of Semitic people living deep in Egypt, not in their homelands in the Syria-Palestine region, as had been thought. Alphabetic writing emerged as a kind of shorthand by which fewer than 30 symbols, each one representing a single sound, could be combined to form words for a wide variety of ideas and things. This eventually replaced writing systems like Egyptian hieroglyphics in which hundreds of pictographs, or idea pictures, had to be mastered.”

This is a very interesting point of view, since we understand that the Hebrews (Semites) were living in Goshen, southern Egypt, at that time. Moses, trained in all the wisdom of Egypt, became the first author of what we call the Bible, as under divine inspiration, while a shepherd in Midian, he penned Genesis and probably Job, thus beginning a written media of conveying God’s message. There followed, according to the providence of God, prophets who wrote messages at various times for the good of His people, which were preserved, on occasion, for future generations who would benefit from this heavenly wisdom.

But in no case do we have the original writings of these men of God. (Scholars call the original writing the “autograph”.) What we have are copies. Actually, we have copies which are copies of copies of copies. Until just a few years ago, the earliest copies of Old Testament writings were from about the 9th century A.D., which as you can see, is many centuries separated from the originals.

For the most part, the Scriptures were accepted, when people had an opportunity to read them, with few questions about who wrote them, when they wrote them and whether they were accurate.

You see, during the Middle Ages the devil was busy keeping the Scriptures from people completely. They were either kept away from them in the physical sense (being too expensive or even illegal to have them), by illiteracy or by intimidation, that is, they were led to believe that only “theologians” could understand them.

But then came the Reformation and the printing press, which combined to make the Scriptures available to almost anyone. So the devil switched tactics. The Bible was now in the hands of the people, where it belonged. So what did he do? In the centuries that followed the Reformation he began to whisper doubts of its authenticity and accuracy. “You can’t trust the Bible,” he said. Yes, here’s the book of Daniel, but now clever scholars began to question whether it was really written by Daniel.

There arose a whole field of study called Biblical Criticism, challenging the validity of the Bible. Because Daniel’s prophecies are so accurate (he names Greece as the empire which would follow Persia, more than 200 years before Alexander’s rise in 331 B.C.), maybe it wasn’t written in the time of Daniel, like it says it was, but much later when the “prophecies” were already fulfilled. Then somebody claiming to write in the place of Daniel wrote the book and purported that this “history” was actually written centuries before as “prophecy.” Of course, for those who are willing to take the testimony of Jesus, there is no question. He simply referred to the writings as being “written by Daniel the prophet.” Matthew 24:15. The critics said, “Maybe Isaiah didn’t write the entire book that bears his name. Maybe someone else wrote the last part” (40-66).

And the thought began to circulate that because so many centuries had transpired between when Moses, Samuel, David and all the other prophets wrote, and because we have only copies of copies of copies, maybe the Bible isn’t as reliable as we think it is. After all, the book of Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament, was probably written about 430 B.C., and what we had, until just a few years ago, was from about 1200 years later! That’s a separation similar to our day as compared with Charlemagne! The separation is even greater if you think of the writings of Moses, who wrote 1000 years before Malachi! So the devil inspired critics to jab at the fabric of faith, and poke holes in the confidence of believers.

Then in 1947 something wonderful happened. The Lord, through His providence allowed a treasure to be discovered. In the book of Revelation there is a verse that I believe has application here. It says, “But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.” Revelation 12:16. The woman represents the Church, and the dragon we’re told is the devil. At the very time when the devil was peddling his agenda of distrust in the Scriptures, God allowed the earth to disgorge a wonderful treasure.

A young Bedouin shepherd boy named Mohammed Ahmed el-Hamed (nicknamed edh-Dhib, "the wolf&#8221 tossed a rock into the mouth of a cave near the northwest shore of the Dead Sea, and changed history. Some say he was bored and just tossed it for target practice; others that he was trying discourage a wandering goat from getting too close to danger. In any case, there was a clanking noise, and the young boy came closer and tossed another stone and heard something like jars breaking. Maybe he had discovered a hidden treasure! Maybe he was going to find gold and jewels! Oh, how disappointing! Just some old pottery with paper like material and strange writing, wrapped in linen. His chance to be a millionaire evaporated. Actually, to borrow the words of Paul, it was literally “treasure in earthen vessels.”

To make a very long story short, eventually there were 11 caves discovered between 1947 and 1956 near the community of Khirbet Qumran, which is about 13 miles from Jerusalem, about the distance from our church to downtown Escondido. Inside the jars were copies of, among other things, the Scriptures. Sometimes there were merely fragments, sometimes entire books of the Old Testament. Altogether there were a little less than 900 scrolls recovered representing all the books of the Old Testament except the book of Esther.

Through the analysis of carbon dating, the materials were written from the second century B.C. to about 68 A.D., just before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman general Titus. The Isaiah scroll is 1000 years older than anything available previous to this. Some were written on papyrus, but the majority was written on gevil, or animal skins like vellum. One scroll is written on copper. Although there are actually three dialects found, Biblical Hebrew dominates the collection.


In addition to the biblical manuscripts, there are commentaries on the Hebrew canon, paraphrases that expand on the Torah, community standards and regulations, rules of war, non-canonical psalms, hymnals and sermons. Most of the texts are written in Hebrew and Aramaic, with a few in Greek.

Who wrote them, and why were they put there? The Dead Sea Scrolls appear to be the library of a Jewish sect, considered most likely the Essenes who were strictly observant Jewish scribes. The library appears to have been hidden away in caves around the outbreak of the First Jewish Revolt (66-70 A.D.) as the Roman army advanced against the Jews. They represent the largest collection of Old Testament Scriptures ever found.


When they were discovered, there was a bit of apprehension as to what they would find when they compared these much older manuscripts with what we had previously. Would there be huge differences? Would it be seen that the Bible that had been used for centuries was indeed inaccurate? Interested parties held their collective breath to see what the results of the studies would show. Amazingly, it came to be seen that the differences between these older manuscripts and the others were hardly worth mentioning. Slight variations which in no way affected the content or the message of the material were all that emerged! The Bible was shown to be accurate and reliable beyond expectation!

"Probably the Dead Sea Scrolls have had the greatest Biblical impact. They have provided Old Testament manuscripts approximately 1,000 years older than our previous oldest manuscript. The Dead Sea Scrolls have demonstrated that the Old Testament was accurately transmitted during this interval. In addition, they provide a wealth of information on the times leading up to, and during, the life of Christ.
—Dr. Bryant Wood, archaeologist, Associates for Biblical Research (note links)

Was the accurate copying of the Scriptures something that came by accident or coincidence? Not at all! These copyists took their role seriously. Paul’s statement in Romans that the oracles were “committed” to the Jews represented the thinking of these scribes. They took Psalm 147:19, 20 literally: “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statues and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation; and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.” Deuteronomy 4:2 had meaning for them: “Ye shall not add the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”
_______________________________________________________________

Part 2 to follow.
 
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thecountrydoc

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What's The Fuss About The Scrolls? Part 2:


When the O.T. writers finished their scrolls, there were no copying machines or printing presses to duplicate their writing for the public. They depended on scribes--men who patiently copied the Scriptures by hand (our word “manuscript” means “written by hand”) when extra copies were needed and when the original scrolls became too worn to use any longer. The scribes attempted to make exact copies of the original scrolls, and the scribes who followed them attempted to make exact copies of the copies.


How did the scribe approach his work? Before he began his work each day, he would bathe in special pool for purification, (the community at Qumran has these purification pools). The scribes would be seated at long tables in special rooms called “scriptoriums”. Each scribe would test his reed pen by dipping it in ink and writing the name Amalek, then crossing it out (cf. Deut. 25:19). Then he would say, "I am writing the Torah in the name of its sanctity and the name of God in its sanctity." The scribe would read a sentence in the manuscript he was copying, repeat it aloud, and then write it. Each time he came to the name of God, he would say, "I am writing the name of God for the holiness of His name." If he made an error in writing God's name, he had to destroy the entire sheet of papyrus or vellum that he was using.


1. The parchments had to be made ready and dedicated to God. They had to be clean and fit to receive God’s written words.

2. The ink used was always black (the darkest and most distinctive color). It was made in accordance to a special recipe and (unbelievably) used only for copying Scripture. The consciousness of doing something quite unique and far-reaching in consequence can always be detected.

3. As the scribe took his place for the work, the words written could not be duplicated by memory even though many times the scribe knew many passages of Scripture by heart. He had to copy them from an authentic copy which he had before him. As he wrote he had to pronounce every word aloud.

4. He was obliged to wipe his pen clean every time he had to write to Hebrew word for God. This ensured the distinctiveness and clarity of his writing; also, the reverence these men had for God and His Word is impressive. In some traditions the name of God was held so sacred it wasn’t written at all, but “the name” was substituted.

5. If just one mistake was committed, the whole sheet was condemned. If there were three mistakes found on any page, the whole manuscript was condemned. Upon completion, the scroll had to be checked for accuracy within thirty days.

6. Every word and every letter was counted and jotted down. This ensured constancy in writing, not adding or skipping any words.Every word and every letter was counted, and if a letter were omitted, an extra letter inserted, or if one letter touched another, the manuscript was condemned and destroyed at once. Jeremiah is the first to mention the scribes as a professional group: "How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain make he it; the pen of the scribes (sopherim) is in vain" (Jer.8:8). The word sopherim literally means "the counters"; the early scribes earned this title because they counted every letter of every book of Scripture to make sure they didn't leave out anything. After the scribe finished copying a particular book, he would count all of the words and letters it contained. Then he checked this tally against the count for the manuscript that he was copying. He counted the number of times a particular word occurred in the book, and he noted the middle word and the middle letter in the book, comparing all of these with his original. By making these careful checks, he hoped to avoid any scribal errors.

7. A column on a parchment had to include at least forty-eight lines and no more than sixty. Both letters and words had to be spaced at a certain distance and no word could touch another (to avoid confusion in reading and therefore possible errors in future copying from the fresh manuscript).

The result of all this painstaking effort was an accurate transmission of God’s Word, a Book on which we can place our faith and trust. God wants us to have this book because it tells us about Him, His love and His plans.

There’s power in the Book when read reverently. Leading up to my front door is a sidewalk. The edge of it, where it meets the cement of our front porch, I’m going to have to chip and grind down because it is elevated about 1 ½ inches. It wasn’t poured that way, I can assure you. And I can’t see what’s causing that heavy cement sidewalk to rise, but I can take a pretty good guess. I’m sure it’s the root of a pine tree a few yards away.

When we first moved into our house 20 years ago, Yvonne’s parents gave us for our first Christmas a small pine tree in a quart sized container. After the holiday was over, I didn’t want to discard it, so I put it into the ground, in our front yard. That tree now dominates our yard. But now the sidewalk is lifted up by one of its roots, and I have to constantly make guests aware of it when they leave our house, so no one will trip over it. Now, if you had a heavy piece of concrete and asked me to lift it, you would be shocked if I handed you a 10 inch high pine tree in a quart planter. But that’s what’s happened right out my front door! Yes, it’s taken time. Yes, the change hasn’t been immediate. Yes, you can’t really see or hear it do its work, but it’s doing it!

There’s living power in that root, like there is in this Book. This Book is more than paper and ink. It’s God-breathed. That’s the word Paul used in I Timothy 3:16. “Theopneustos.” God’s Spirit, or Breath, was at work in the origination of these writings. How did creation come to be? “By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.” Psalm 33:6 How about the creation of man? “God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being.” Genesis 2:7 Jesus breathed on a small group of followers and, looking forward to what would happen on the day of Pentecost, said “receive My Spirit.” John 20:22. This Book is “God-breathed.”

If there’s one thing we need, it’s the Book! SDA’s used to be known as people of the Book. It will make us wise to salvation. It will correct us. It will change our thinking. God forbid that we should forsake that glorious heritage!

When Robert Frost died, his estate sold a small bedside table with a Bible on it. These had to be sold as “one” because the Bible had become “glued” to the table, presumably through inactivity! All of the wonderful and providential miracles of the preservation of the Scriptures will do us not a whit of good if we don’t take the time to study it, if we don’t alter our life schedule so as to include some time each day with Him. It is through His Word that we come into contact with Him. Where else do we find the answers to life great questions: who are we, where did we come from, where are we going?

In 1922, after years of searching, Howard Carter lifted his lantern into the death chamber of Tutankhamen, and when asked what he saw, replied breathlessly, “I see many wonderful things.” This can be you and me, each day. This can be an illustration of us discovering the treasures of God’s Word. You and I, with the lantern of God’s Spirit, can peer into the mysteries and treasures contained in this Book. For you and me, they won’t be Dead Sea Scrolls, but living oracles which are sufficient to convert our souls.
_________________________________________________________________

Respectfully submited by your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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