The Dead Know Nothing?

[RhetorTheo]

"'The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.... there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest' (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10). 'The dead praise not the Lord' (Psalm 115:17)."

These are quoted by Protestants. In our Bible, we have Maccabees and scriptures supporting prayers for the dead. In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who has died. And the early Church fathers mention prayers for the dead.

But how are the OT scriptures reconciled in Catholicism? Are people in the Old Covenant unconscious, while those from Jesus onward conscious?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

But how are the OT scriptures reconciled in Catholicism? Are people in the Old Covenant unconscious, while those from Jesus onward conscious?

No, the gates of Heaven were not yet open to the dead in the OT. When Jesus died, He went to the "holding place" and freed the Old Testament Saints allowing them into Heaven. Now they, as well as the New Testament Saints are in Heaven, alive and well.

 

[Bastoune]

Ephesians 3:14-15 Paul tells us tells us, "For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name." Our family ties and unity in the Body of Christ do not cease at the time we leave this world.

Those OT quotes are regarding those souls in "Sheol" -- or "Hades" in Greek, where the dead awaited in a gloomy dungeon of sorts. The Lord beat the power of death on the Cross.

Hebrews 12:1 declares there is a "cloud of witnesses" praying for us on high.

In Revelation 5:8-9 and 8:3-4, the Church Triumphant in Heaven offers there prayers for the Church Militant on Earth. Those saints are pure, holy and blameless, more holy and "alive" than we are (cf. Rev. 21:27).

Do these people "know anything"?!? OF COURSE they do!!!

We do know that the angels in heaven rejoice over the repentence of one sinner (cf. Luke 5:10), as would surely the saints who are separated from the body and like angels (cf. Luke 20:36).

They observe us (cf. 1 Cor. 4:9) and as 1 Cor. 13:12 says, "we see through a glass darkly" but will "know fully" everything we need to know once we have left this world.

 

[raptor13]

No, the gates of Heaven were not yet open to the dead in the OT. When Jesus died, He went to the "holding place" and freed the Old Testament Saints allowing them into Heaven. Now they, as well as the New Testament Saints are in Heaven, alive and well.

ahh!! i was wondering about that too. Now it makes perfect sense

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

My pleasure Raptor.

 

[Michelina]

The key to understanding the consciousness of the dead is to understand the nature of the human soul.

Where is your 'mind'? Is it in your physical brain(s), which will rot and disappear? The human mind is not 'in' the brain. It is in the soul, which is the animating principle of the body. It is in the soul that we bear the image and likeness of God. His image and likeness (intelligence and freedom and immortality) are the very essence of who we are.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

The key to understanding the consciousness of the dead is to understand the nature of the human soul.

Where is your 'mind'? Is it in your physical brain(s), which will rot and disappear? The human mind is not 'in' the brain. It is in the soul, which is the animating principle of the body. It is in the soul that we bear the image and likeness of God. His image and likeness (intelligence and freedom and immortality) are the very essence of who we are.

I don't know about that...

Why is our mind effected by damage to the brain, or chemicals that effect the brain, etc?

 

[Bastoune]

Besides, God is God of the LIVING!!!!! (cf. Mark 12:27)

 

[ps139]

I don't know about that...

Why is our mind effected by damage to the brain, or chemicals that effect the brain, etc?

Brain matter/neurons are the physical means through which we express ourselves. Thats my guess. Its a good question - science has no idea where "knowledge" is stored. It knows how it moves but as to any sort of dimensions or measurements - its all speculation.
My cognitive science professor at Hopkins told me that for every one question answered about the brain, 10 more must be asked.

 

[ps139]

No, the gates of Heaven were not yet open to the dead in the OT. When Jesus died, He went to the "holding place" and freed the Old Testament Saints allowing them into Heaven. Now they, as well as the New Testament Saints are in Heaven, alive and well.

Question: what about Moses, Enoch, Elijah??

I was talking to someone about this the other day, and we had no idea how these 3 fit into the equation.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Question: what about Moses, Enoch, Elijah??

I was talking to someone about this the other day, and we had no idea how these 3 fit into the equation.

Hmmmm, good point...I dont know.

 

[Matrona]

Wasn't Elijah assumed into heaven?

 

[pmarquette]

2Ti 1:16

The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
Is this not a better example of comforting the sick and bereaved , after the gospel of Matthew , chapters 5 and 25 , than one of prayers for the departed ?

Would not pray at all times , in all sorts of prayers , be a better verse to cite ?
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

 

[pmarquette]

Hmmmm, good point...I dont know.

some contend that Enoch and Elijiah taken by God before there time
are set apart to be the two witnesses in the book of Revelation ....
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:


Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

moses died and the angels hid his body ....
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

[ps139]

some contend that Enoch and Elijiah taken by God before there time
are set apart to be the two witnesses in the book of Revelation ....
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:


Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

moses died and the angels hid his body ....
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

My question was: if they were assumed/raptured - to where did they go?

 

[Axion]

Enoch, Elijah, and most probably Moses, were assumed bodily into heaven, like Mary, to be in the direct presence of God.

We also know that the citizens of heaven are aware of the prayers of Christians, the earthly saints.
Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The inhabitants of heaven can witness events on earth:

Rev 19.1 After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 2 for his judgments are true and just; he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants." 3 Once more they cried, "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever." 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who is seated on the throne, saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!"

Most importantly all Christians form one body in Christ. that is never divided. That means we remain one body with those in heaven as well as those on earth...

1 Cor 12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body...
24 ... But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honour to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together.

This lies behind the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. All those who are in Christ, on earth or in heaven, suffer and rejoice together.

 

[garlik]

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

My question was: if they were assumed/raptured - to where did they go?

Then

Hebrews 9:27 has to also fit in to the "equation".

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

So Moses was raptured too? Where is this in the Bible?

Thanks!

Im glad this does make sense though, as I didnt know the answer at all! Glad there are so many great Catholics here.

 

[Axion]

So Moses was raptured too? Where is this in the Bible?

Thanks!

It's not stated specifically, but strongly inferred:

Jude 8 Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones. 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

This is based on tha Apocryphal Jewish, Assumption of Moses account.

And it is backed up by:

Matthew 17.3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah." 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."

Both Moses and Elijah appeared as apparitions at the transfiguration, conversing with Jesus. This strongly indicates that Moses and Elijah were together before and after, in heaven.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Yes, this makes sense.

Sweet!