The Days Being Shortened

HisdaughterJen · May 2, 2010

Achilles6129 said:
I do not read anywhere in Rev. where Christ begins opening the seals upon his ascension.

Perhaps you should read and consider my article. You might find I made some good points

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

...
Rev 6:1¶And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The first seal rider is a fulfillment of a promise Jesus gave the church just before he ascended:

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The Greek says the 1st seal rider goes from "victory to victory". The 1st seal rider is the Spirit-filled church.

The other riders came against Israel, as promised in Ezek 14:21 because of Israel's abominations. The four riders are God's "four dreadful judgments" that go out from God according to Zech 6. They are of God.

What do riders do? They keep on riding. They have been riding since Jesus ascended, took the scroll and opened the first four seals, consecutively, together.

Almighty's humble servant · May 2, 2010

Achilles6129 said:
I've been looking at things that could possibly speed up the earth's rotation and came up with an interesting possibility (and, unlike many of the theories set forth on this forum, it's from a reputable source). There is a distant object (called Sedna) orbiting the sun out beyond Pluto, and it has a very strange orbit, which scientists theorize could have been caused by a brown dwarf star, which they are currently searching for. Here's an article about it:

Search on for Death Star that throws out deadly comets - Telegraph

"Nasa scientists are searching for an invisible 'Death Star' that circles the Sun, which catapults potentially catastrophic comets at the Earth. The star, also known as Nemesis, is five times the size of Jupiter and could be to blame for the impact that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago."

"Nemesis is predicted to lie at a distance equal to 25,000 times that of the Earth from the Sun, or a third of a light-year.
Astronomers believe it is of a type called a red or brown dwarf a "failed star" that has not managed to generate enough energy to burn like the Sun."

If it hasn't generated enough energy to burn like the sun, that would make it basically invisible, wouldn't it?

"But it should be detectable by a heat-sensitive space telescope called WISE, the Wide-Field Infrared Survey Explorer."

"A major clue to Nemesis's existence is a mysterious dwarf planet called Sedna that was spotted on an elongated 12,000-year-long orbit around the sun."

"Mike Brown, who discovered Sedna in 2003, said: "Sedna is a very odd object it shouldn't be there! It never comes anywhere close to any of the giant planets or the sun. It's way, way out there on this incredibly eccentric orbit."

The idea is that Nemesis is responsible for Sedna's odd orbit. Basically, the scientists are theorizing that there could be a companion star to the sun out there - and if there is, this could be what we're seeing in Revelation when the earth's rotation speeds up so we have a 16 hour day instead of a 24 hour one.

Peace eternal and ALmighty's favor be upon all:

This is exactly what another brother named highwic and I were referencing.
People may name these heavenly bodies as the wish, but the great star is referred to as Wormwood. It is INDEED orbiting our sun, and it carries with it MANY meteors/asteroids. It WILL alter the earths gravitational rotation, and it will cause days to be shortened for a time..........

But if will soon pass our gravitational field, and the disruptions will secede. The damage from the rotational change will leave their mark though, and the world will long for a deliverer.
When he is come, his appearance will be in the clouds, as in a rapture, and although, it will appear a multitude will have been spared these catastrophes, this deliverer doesn't save anyone, and we, those who think it should have been us (the steadfast), may wonder if this is actually the messiah we await.

Now, if we weren't so adept in the Word, we might very well be fooled by this deceiver, because he will heal this broken planet, and establish peace and unity, and rebirth. He will offer us an unparalleled culture of equality and sharing. A utopia of sorts, tied into this worldwideweb, in a global state.

For 3.5 years, the restoration consumes our time, and our existence will be work for food. When we see this perfect restoration, and this global unity we may be tempted. Those days must be for this set time, less me fall for the deception.
After 3.5 years, when he fails to initiate us, he will make his mark mandatory. He will send his minions to arrest us, and take us in for initiation. If we refuse, we are imprisoned. If we take it in our hand, we're set loose, then we take a screw driver, and cut it out. The next time were are caught, it goes into your frontal cortex, and I challenge a man to do a full frontal on himself with a 5 in 1 and a utility knife. So were are killed.

These days must be for this set time so we do not succumb to the torture of being outlaws. I would say 90% of the Christian church(us) are opposed to illegal activities. We would almost never break a law in protest. But when posed with the though of implanting our children so they may attend school, we ALL would pause, and most would refuse.

Now, as a child abusers, we may feel as if were are being neglectful parents for holding our children back. Allowing them to suffer alongside us in the wilderness. This would pull against our souls. Some will fall. But our Lord has given us His Word. It will only last another 3.5 years. That is an oath, and He has never failed in any promise.

So unless this were to be this short time, lesser men would fall. Many will pray for death. I probably even will. But as we know, when the Lord sends this dwarf star (whatever) back around, this time the Lord Jesus returns in ALL His Glory, and destroys the works of man for all time, and the beatitudes are fulfilled. Our inheritance is bequeathed, and we are in the court of the Lord Jesus, watching as His hand of power strikes down, and burns away this wasted planet, and restores it to it original glory, were we will have again the garden of eden for all time.

May He be praised and exalted above all forever!

Achilles6129 · May 2, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The Lamb has been slain since the foundation of the world, Jen. Just because we see a slain Lamb in Revelation does not mean that this happens right after Christ's ascension:

"8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8

HisdaughterJen said:
The first seal rider is a fulfillment of a promise Jesus gave the church just before he ascended:

Nothing of the sort. The first seal rider is actually, in all likelihood, the antichrist (because the first seal rider resembles Jesus Christ).

HisdaughterJen said:
The Greek says the 1st seal rider goes from "victory to victory". The 1st seal rider is the Spirit-filled church.

No connection there at all. The antichrist goes from "victory to victory".

So, there is absolutely no evidence that the Lamb opens the seals upon his ascension. As a matter of fact, it has to be otherwise, and here's why:

"9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. " Ac. 1:9

Christ ascends there in Acts 1:9. So, according to you, Christ begins opening the seals right then and there. But not according to the book of Revelation, which was written after Christ's ascension:

"1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Rev. 4:1

The events in Revelation take place after the ascension of Jesus Christ. So the scrolls cannot be opened by Christ upon ascension.

HisdaughterJen · May 3, 2010

Achilles6129 said:
The events in Revelation take place after the ascension of Jesus Christ. So the scrolls cannot be opened by Christ upon ascension.

Think about your words here.

It is ONE two-sided scroll with seven seals. Jesus was worthy to take the scroll and open the seals upon ascension, after his sacrifice. And he did so with the first four seals.

Rev 5:1¶And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

...
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
...
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

yeshuasavedme · May 3, 2010

What is the scroll? What does it say? Why does Jesus open it?
These answers are in 1 Enoch, and they explain why Jesus, the avenger, does not judge the rulers in the heavenlies nor remove them from there, until He takes the book [a collection of writings, written for Him by the heavenly scribe], and opens it so as to avenge, only after He removes His own saints from the midst of the world, as Psalm 50 and Isaiah 26:19-21, and chapter 27, and Psalm 75:2,3 [in the Hebrew], state.
.
-and why is the scroll sealed with seven seals?

yeshuasavedme · May 3, 2010

yeshuasavedme said:
What is the scroll? What does it say? Why does Jesus open it?
These answers are in 1 Enoch, and they explain why Jesus, the avenger, does not judge the rulers in the heavenlies nor remove them from there, until He takes the book [a collection of writings, written for Him by the heavenly scribe], and opens it so as to avenge, only after He removes His own saints from the midst of the world, as Psalm 50 and Isaiah 26:19-21, and chapter 27, and Psalm 75:2,3 [in the Hebrew], state.
.
-and why is the scroll sealed with seven seals?

Enoch chapter 61
"And He called another and spake unto him: 'Observe and mark everything that the shepherds will do to those sheep; for they will destroy more of them than I have commanded them.

62And every excess and the destruction which will be wrought through the shepherds, record namely how many they destroy according to my command, and how many according to their own caprice: record against every individual shepherd all the destruction he effects.
63And read out before me by number how many they destroy, and how many they deliver over for destruction, that I may have this as a testimony against them, and know every deed of the shepherds, that I may comprehend and see what they do, whether or not they abide by my command which I have commanded them. 64But they shall not know it, and thou shalt not declare it to them, nor admonish them, but only record against each individual all the destruction which the shepherds effect each in his time and lay it all before me.'...

8And the shepherds and their associates delivered over those sheep to all the wild beasts, to devour them, and each one of them received in his time a definite number: it was written by the other in a book how many each one of them destroyed of them. 69And each one slew and destroyed many more than was prescribed; and I began to weep and lament on account of those sheep.

70And thus in the vision I saw that one who wrote, how he wrote down every one that was destroyed by those shepherds, day by day, and carried up and laid down and showed actually the whole book to the Lord of the sheep- even everything that they had done, and all that each one of them had made away with, and all that they had given over to destruction. 71And the book was read before the Lord of the sheep, and He took the book from his hand and read it and sealed it and laid it down.

Why did the Great Glory, who sat on the throne, not avenge His people at the time of the deeds done by the shepherds [the rulers of darkness in the kingdom of the prince of darkness, in the heavenly realm over earth]?
Because He has ordained a day, and He has ordained the Avenger, the Son of Man [the Word Himself come in flesh], to ransom the earth and to avenge the blood of His own ransomed ones, at the time appointed, and not before. He is "silent" until then

Psa 50:1

Psa 50:3-6 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may vindicate [avenge] his people.

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God [is] judge himself. Selah.

Enoch chapter 90
14"And I saw till that man, who wrote down the names of the shepherds and carried up into the presence of the Lord of the sheep came and helped it and showed it everything: he had come down for the help of that ram.
15"And I saw till the Lord of the sheep came unto them in wrath, and all who saw Him fled, and they all fell into His shadow from before His face. 16All the eagles and vultures and ravens and kites were gathered together, and there came with them all the sheep of the field, yea, they all came together, and helped each other to break that horn of the ram.
17"And I saw that man, who wrote the book according to the command of the Lord, till he opened that book concerning the destruction which those twelve last shepherds had wrought, and showed that they had destroyed much more than their predecessors, before the Lord of the sheep.
18"And I saw till the Lord of the sheep came unto them and took in His hand the staff of His wrath, and smote the earth, and the earth clave asunder, and all the beasts and all the birds of the heaven fell from among those sheep, and were swallowed up in the earth and it covered them.
19"And I saw till a great sword was given to the sheep, and the sheep proceeded against all the beasts of the field to slay them, and all the beasts and the birds of the heaven fled before their face.
20"And I saw till a throne was erected in the pleasant land, and the Lord of the sheep sat Himself thereon, and the other took the sealed books and opened those books before the Lord of the sheep.

21"And the Lord called those men the seven first white ones, and commanded that they should bring before Him, beginning with the first star which led the way, all the stars whose privy members were like those of horses, and they brought them all before Him. 22"And He said to that man who wrote before Him, being one of those seven white ones, and said unto him: 'Take those seventy shepherds to whom I delivered the sheep, and who taking them on their own authority slew more than I commanded them.'

23"And behold they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. 24And the judgement was held first over the stars, and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, and full of pillars of fire.

25And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. 26And I saw at that time how a like abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they brought those blinded sheep, and they were all judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned; now this abyss was to the right of that house. 27And I saw those sheep burning and their bones burning.

HisdaughterJen · May 3, 2010

the scroll:

Zec 5:1I looked again--and there before me was a flying scroll!

Zec 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

Zec 5:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.

Zec 5:4 I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

Rev 5:1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

Rev 5:2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?"

Rev 5:3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Rev 5:4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.

Rev 5:5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

From these scriptures, it looks as if the scroll is a scroll of judgment and wrath against the thief (devil) and his followers. Jesus is the only one who is worthy to open the scroll and send out the events of the seals. He is worthy because he purchased us all back to God with his shed blood. HE has the God-given power to do so and to break satan's control over the earth.

yeshuasavedme · May 3, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
the scroll:

Zec 5:1I looked again--and there before me was a flying scroll!

That is strange, isolated from context exegesis, to connect a "flying scroll" which is read, to the sealed book which is in the hand of Him who sits on the throne and which no man can look upon nor read the contents of.
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

The flying scroll of Zechariah is not sealed, and it is read. It has no connection to the sealed book which was written and given to the One who sat on the throne, who sealed it and did not act upon it in the times it was written and brought up to Him, as pr Enoch.

Rev 5:3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Rev 5:4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.

You have a sealed scroll/book and that book contains the doings of the rulers of darkness who hold the earth, and the time of their judgment is come, when that book is opened by Him who has the power by His ransom of the earth, to avenge His people and His saints.
Woe to the earth when He takes His great power unto Himself and reigns, opening that book and pouring out His wrath, justly, upon the rulers of the kingdom of darkness, and the inhabitants of the world.

.

¶ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

HisdaughterJen · May 3, 2010

yeshuasavedme said:
That is strange, isolated from context exegesis, to connect a "flying scroll" which is read, to the sealed book which is in the hand of Him who sits on the throne and which no man can look upon nor read the contents of.
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

The flying scroll of Zechariah is not sealed, and it is read. It has no connection to the sealed book which was written and given to the One who sat on the throne, who sealed it and did not act upon it in the times it was written and brought up to Him, as pr Enoch.

Rev 5:3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Rev 5:4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.

You have a sealed scroll/book and that book contains the doings of the rulers of darkness who hold the earth, and the time of their judgment is come, when that book is opened by Him who has the power by His ransom of the earth, to avenge His people and His saints.
Woe to the earth when He takes His great power unto Himself and reigns, opening that book and pouring out His wrath, justly, upon the rulers of the kingdom of darkness, and the inhabitants of the world.

.

¶ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Zechariah is a companion book to Revelation. In Zechariah, you find the scroll, the white robes, the two witnesses, the 4 horses, the timing of the return, ...among other things.

Zechariah doesn't tell us what is written in the scroll...neither does Revelation, for that matter. Both tell us what the purpose of the scroll is and Revelation details what happens when each of the seven seals on the scroll are opened.

Jesus took that scroll from the right hand of God when he ascended after he shed his blood for the sins of those who believe in him, according to Rev 5. He started opening those seals after he took it. The four horsemen were sent out first, consecutively together. The last three seals will be opened consecutively, together as well as the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath is beginning.

yeshuasavedme · May 3, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
Jesus took that scroll from the right hand of God when he ascended after he shed his blood for the sins of those who believe in him, according to Rev 5. He started opening those seals after he took it.

Jer 25:38 He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.
Isa 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

Jesus took nothing when He ascended and sat down. He has not yet taken His great power unto Himself and reigned, and the pillars of earth are not yet reset, and the kingdom of darkness is not yet judged by Him.
As yet, He remains silent, and Zec 5 has not one iota of relation to the sealed book which no one can take and read, for it is in the hand of Him who sits on the throne, not flying through somewhere, open, not sealed, and read by the angel to Zechariah.

Jer 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread [the grapes], against all the inhabitants of the earth.

Jer 25:31 A noise shall come [even] to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them [that are] wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
Jer 25:32 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
Jer 25:34 ¶ Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves [in the ashes], ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
Jer 25:35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape.
Jer 25:36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, [shall be heard]: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.
Jer 25:37
Jer 25:38 He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.

Isa 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
Isa 42:14 ¶ I have long time[ from eternity] holden my peace; I have been still, [and] refrained myself: [now] will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Jesus is God, and He is the One who sits on the throne, and His face is the only face of God any created being ever sees, so you are missing something [the fact that He who sat on the throne, who was given the book, in Enoch, which was sealed, by the scribe appointed to record the doings of the seventy shepherds against His people, Israel, is come in flesh as the Lamb, and is the Lion who will roar, when He takes the book, by His right as the legal Kinsman/Redeemer of the earth, and brings justice to it,-as Isaiah 59 shows], besides also missing the clear fact that what is written on the flying scroll of Zechariah [as clearly told by the angel] is not what is written on the sealed book in the right hand of Him who sits on the throne.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Hsa 11:10 They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.

HisdaughterJen · May 4, 2010

The angel did not read the scroll to Zechariah. Zechariah saw a vision of a two-sided scroll. It is indeed the same scroll as the 7 sealed scroll in Revelation. The angel said it is a curse that is going forth over the face of the whole earth and who is cursed. He never reads what is written in the scroll.

Zec 5:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.

Zec 5:4 I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

yeshuasavedme · May 5, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
The angel did not read the scroll to Zechariah. Zechariah saw a vision of a two-sided scroll. It is indeed the same scroll as the 7 sealed scroll in Revelation. The angel said it is a curse that is going forth over the face of the whole earth and who is cursed. He never reads what is written in the scroll.

Zec 5:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.

Zec 5:4 I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

"According to it" on one side..."according to it" on the other side means that the angel read it. And the flying scroll is not a sealed un-openable scroll which no one can even "see" and no one is even worthy to "look/blepo thereon", which the the sealed scroll in Revelation is. You are imagining that it is. You imagine a lot about this issue which is not to be found in the Scriptures, as I am demonstrating in this post.

The sealed book in the hand of the One on the throne cannot be opened;
it is not flying;
and it is not looked at/blepō [it is not read nor seen] because there is no one worthy to even look/ thereon:
blepō 1) to see, discern, of the bodily eye
a) with the bodily eye: to be possessed of sight, have the power of seeing
b) perceive by the use of the eyes: to see, look descry
c) to turn the eyes to anything: to look at, look upon, gaze at
d) to perceive by the senses, to feel
e) to discover by use, to know by experience
ead.

Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look/blepō thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look/blepō thereon.
Now what is written in that book in Revelation and why is only the Lamb who was slain worthy to look thereon and to unseal the seven seals?
The interpretation is in Enoch, and in Isaiah 59, and in the oracles of God given through Moses, which teach us about the ransom of the earth, itself, by the Kinsman's blood shed on the Mercy Seat and sprinkled seven times and poured out before the altar on the ground, which the high priest in Israel, serving in the office of Christ, rehearsed yearly, as an oracle.
Why seven times?
Why seven seals?
We are speaking about the ransom of the earth and the avenger of blood finally gathering His own unto Himself and avenging the blood of the souls slain on earth by the iniquity of the prince of darkness, operating in the hearts of wicked and sinful men on earth below, and removing them from their thrones and setting the raptured saints on those thrones [those who are judged worthy of ruling]. Only when the Redeemer takes His great power unto Himself and reigns will the seals be opened, one by one, and the rulers judged who "hold the earth" as principalities and powers, as rulers of darkness in the heavenlies.

Lev 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Isaiah 59 shows that there was no man who could bring forth justice for the earth, so YHWH put onthe garments of Kinsman to bring forth that justice, and He has not done that justice yet, for He is building up Zion stone by stone, as souls are redeemed and added to Zion of the heavenlies [just men made perfect by the Spirit of adoption].

Meantime, He is keeping silence, "holding His peace", but when He "roars" the rulers of darkness will tremble and be cast down, off their thrones in the heavenlies!

Isa 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
Isa 42:14
I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, [and] refrained myself: [now] will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
When the heavenly scribe, seen by Enoch, who recorded the deeds done by the heavenly shepherds [principalities and powers set over the nations] against the scattered seed of Israel read the deeds done by the shepherds which were more than the Great Glory had allowed them to do against His people, the LORD of Glory on the throne kept silence, sealed the book, and laid it beside Him.

When the Son of Man in heaven, who was seen in the vision by Enoch, with God the Great Glory, in secret/hidden, and who was God [who was ordained for our glory before the foundation of the world], donned human flesh [as in Isaiah 59]; His purpose was to ransom the earth and to bring forth justice for it, as a Kinsman/Redeemer.
Read Isaiah 59. It is no better today than then, even though the Son of Man has come in flesh of New Creation to be the Kinsman/Redeemer, and is the One to whom the Father committed the sum of all judgment, for Him to avenge the blood of all that is written in that book.

The price has been paid for the ransom, but the Avenger of blood has not avenged, and has not cast down those wicked rulers, yet.
They aren't even finished doing their deeds against Israel, yet, according to Enoch's dream vision; so the last seal is not even on the book, because the last records are not even written down, yet.
76"And this one who wrote the book carried it up, and showed it and read it before the Lord of the sheep, and implored Him on their account, and besought Him on their account as he showed Him all the doings of the shepherds, and gave testimony before Him against all the shepherds. 77"And he took the actual book and laid it down beside Him and departed."

0And thus in the vision I saw that one who wrote, how he wrote down every one that was destroyed by those shepherds, day by day, and carried up and laid down and showed actually the whole book to the Lord of the sheep- even everything that they had done, and all that each one of them had made away with, and all that they had given over to destruction. 71And the book was read before the Lord of the sheep, and He took the book from his hand and read it and sealed it and laid it down....

76"And this one who wrote the book carried it up, and showed it and read it before the Lord of the sheep, and implored Him on their account, and besought Him on their account as he showed Him all the doings of the shepherds, and gave testimony before Him against all the shepherds. 77"And he took the actual book and laid it down beside Him and departed."

Now in Revelation we have a completed sealed book that no one is worthy to open or to look thereon, but the Lamb who was slain. Why?
We learn by Enoch's dream vision that it is a record, a testimony, and is sealed, and was laid beside Him that sits on the throne.
We learn in Revelation that there is no one worthy to open the book, to read it, or to look thereon -to perceive it.

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read/anaginōskō1) to distinguish between, to recognise, to know accurately, to acknowledge
2) to read]
the book, neither to look/blepō thereon.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
prevailed/nikaō
V overcome 24, conquer 2, prevail 1, get the victory 1

HisdaughterJen · May 5, 2010

yeshuasavedme said:
"According to it" on one side..."according to it" on the other side means that the angel read it. And the flying scroll is not a sealed un-openable scroll which no one can even "see" and no one is even worthy to "look/blepo thereon", which the the sealed scroll in Revelation is. You are imagining that it is. You imagine a lot about this issue which is not to be found in the Scriptures, as I am demonstrating in this post.

The sealed book in the hand of the One on the throne cannot be opened;
it is not flying;
and it is not looked at/blepō [it is not read nor seen] because there is no one worthy to even look/ thereon:
blepō 1) to see, discern, of the bodily eye
a) with the bodily eye: to be possessed of sight, have the power of seeing
b) perceive by the use of the eyes: to see, look descry
c) to turn the eyes to anything: to look at, look upon, gaze at
d) to perceive by the senses, to feel
e) to discover by use, to know by experience
ead.

Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look/blepō thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look/blepō thereon.
Now what is written in that book in Revelation and why is only the Lamb who was slain worthy to look thereon and to unseal the seven seals?
The interpretation is in Enoch, and in Isaiah 59, and in the oracles of God given through Moses, which teach us about the ransom of the earth, itself, by the Kinsman's blood shed on the Mercy Seat and sprinkled seven times and poured out before the altar on the ground, which the high priest in Israel, serving in the office of Christ, rehearsed yearly, as an oracle.
Why seven times?
Why seven seals?
We are speaking about the ransom of the earth and the avenger of blood finally gathering His own unto Himself and avenging the blood of the souls slain on earth by the iniquity of the prince of darkness, operating in the hearts of wicked and sinful men on earth below, and removing them from their thrones and setting the raptured saints on those thrones [those who are judged worthy of ruling]. Only when the Redeemer takes His great power unto Himself and reigns will the seals be opened, one by one, and the rulers judged who "hold the earth" as principalities and powers, as rulers of darkness in the heavenlies.

Lev 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Isaiah 59 shows that there was no man who could bring forth justice for the earth, so YHWH put onthe garments of Kinsman to bring forth that justice, and He has not done that justice yet, for He is building up Zion stone by stone, as souls are redeemed and added to Zion of the heavenlies [just men made perfect by the Spirit of adoption].

Meantime, He is keeping silence, "holding His peace", but when He "roars" the rulers of darkness will tremble and be cast down, off their thrones in the heavenlies!

Isa 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
Isa 42:14
I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, [and] refrained myself: [now] will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
When the heavenly scribe, seen by Enoch, who recorded the deeds done by the heavenly shepherds [principalities and powers set over the nations] against the scattered seed of Israel read the deeds done by the shepherds which were more than the Great Glory had allowed them to do against His people, the LORD of Glory on the throne kept silence, sealed the book, and laid it beside Him.

When the Son of Man in heaven, who was seen in the vision by Enoch, with God the Great Glory, in secret/hidden, and who was God [who was ordained for our glory before the foundation of the world], donned human flesh [as in Isaiah 59]; His purpose was to ransom the earth and to bring forth justice for it, as a Kinsman/Redeemer.
Read Isaiah 59. It is no better today than then, even though the Son of Man has come in flesh of New Creation to be the Kinsman/Redeemer, and is the One to whom the Father committed the sum of all judgment, for Him to avenge the blood of all that is written in that book.

The price has been paid for the ransom, but the Avenger of blood has not avenged, and has not cast down those wicked rulers, yet.
They aren't even finished doing their deeds against Israel, yet, according to Enoch's dream vision; so the last seal is not even on the book, because the last records are not even written down, yet.
76"And this one who wrote the book carried it up, and showed it and read it before the Lord of the sheep, and implored Him on their account, and besought Him on their account as he showed Him all the doings of the shepherds, and gave testimony before Him against all the shepherds. 77"And he took the actual book and laid it down beside Him and departed."

Now in Revelation we have a completed sealed book that no one is worthy to open or to look thereon, but the Lamb who was slain. Why?
We learn by Enoch's dream vision that it is a record, a testimony, and is sealed, and was laid beside Him that sits on the throne.
We learn in Revelation that there is no one worthy to open the book, to read it, or to look thereon -to perceive it.

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read/anaginōskō1) to distinguish between, to recognise, to know accurately, to acknowledge
2) to read]
the book, neither to look/blepō thereon.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
prevailed/nikaō
V overcome 24, conquer 2, prevail 1, get the victory 1

The angel is NOT detailing what is written in the scroll. The angel is saying what the outcome of the scroll is. Revelation details what is written in the scroll.

It is indeed the same scroll because the purpose and outcome is the same.

yeshuasavedme · May 5, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
The angel is NOT detailing what is written in the scroll. The angel is saying what the outcome of the scroll is. Revelation details what is written in the scroll.

It is indeed the same scroll because the purpose and outcome is the same.

You are wrong, but your mind is made up to be wrong. There is no related purpose or outcome, or beginning, or ending, or in between, to those two different books.

There is absolutely not one iota of relation to the sealed scroll of Revelation, point by point, as I detailed, to the flying scroll of Zechariah.
The sealed scroll does have a relation to the dream visions of Enoch, only, and concerns what Enoch said they concern, and relates to Isaiah 59, Psalm 82, and the other passages I listed already,and many more, when YHWH settles His controversy over Zion with the nations/gentiles and the princes of the kingdom of darkness over them, in the heavenlies.

Til then, He is "keeping silence", as the passages I listed show.

Isa 34:1-8
Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and] with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

1 Enoch 89:...
49"And those sheep grew and multiplied; but all the dogs, and foxes, and wild boars feared and fled before it, and that ram butted and killed the wild beasts, and those wild beasts had no longer any power among the sheep and robbed them no more of ought. 50And that house became great and broad, and it was built for those sheep: and a tower lofty and great was built on the house for the Lord of the sheep, and that house was low, but the tower was elevated and lofty, and the Lord of the sheep stood on that tower and they offered a full table before Him. 51And again I saw those sheep that they again erred and went many ways, and forsook that their house, and the Lord of the sheep called some from amongst the sheep and sent them to the sheep, but the sheep began to slay them. 52And one of them was saved and was not slain, and it sped away and cried aloud over the sheep; and they sought to slay it, but the Lord of the sheep saved it from the sheep, and brought it up to me, and caused it to dwell there. 53And many other sheep He sent to those sheep to testify unto them and lament over them. 54And after that I saw that when they forsook the house of the Lord and His tower they fell away entirely, and their eyes were blinded; and I saw the Lord of the sheep how He wrought much slaughter amongst them in their herds until those sheep invited that slaughter and betrayed His place. 55And He gave them over into the hands of the lions and tigers, and wolves and hyenas, and into the hand of the foxes, and to all the wild beasts, and those wild beasts began to tear in pieces those sheep. 56And I saw that He forsook that their house and their tower and gave them all into the hand of the lions, to tear and devour them, into the hand of all the wild beasts. 57"And I began to cry aloud with all my power, and to appeal to the Lord of the sheep, and to represent to Him in regard to the sheep that they were devoured by all the wild beasts. 58But He remained unmoved, though He saw it, and rejoiced that they were devoured and swallowed and robbed, and left them to be devoured in the hand of all the beasts.
59"And He called seventy shepherds, and cast those sheep to them that they might pasture them, and He spake to the shepherds and their companions: "Let each individual of you pasture the sheep henceforward, and everything that I shall command you that do ye. 60And I will deliver them over unto you duly numbered, and tell you which of them are to be destroyed- and them destroy ye." And He gave over unto them those sheep.
61"And He called another and spake unto him: 'Observe and mark everything that the shepherds will do to those sheep; for they will destroy more of them than I have commanded them. 62And every excess and the destruction which will be wrought through the shepherds, record namely how many they destroy according to my command, and how many according to their own caprice: record against every individual shepherd all the destruction he effects. 63And read out before me by number how many they destroy, and how many they deliver over for destruction, that I may have this as a testimony against them, and know every deed of the shepherds, that I may comprehend and see what they do, whether or not they abide by my command which I have commanded them. 64But they shall not know it, and thou shalt not declare it to them, nor admonish them, but only record against each individual all the destruction which the shepherds effect each in his time and lay it all before me.'
65"And I saw till those shepherds pastured in their season, and they began to slay and to destroy more than they were bidden, and they delivered those sheep into the hand of the lions. 66And the lions and tigers eat and devoured the greater part of those sheep, and the wild boars eat along with them; and they burnt that tower and demolished that house.

67"And I became exceedingly sorrowful over that tower because that house of the sheep was demolished, and afterwards I was unable to see if those sheep entered that house. 68And the shepherds and their associates delivered over those sheep to all the wild beasts, to devour them, and each one of them received in his time a definite number: it was written by the other in a book how many each one of them destroyed of them.

69And each one slew and destroyed many more than was prescribed; and I began to weep and lament on account of those sheep. 70And thus in the vision I saw that one who wrote, how he wrote down every one that was destroyed by those shepherds, day by day, and carried up and laid down and showed actually the whole book to the Lord of the sheep- even everything that they had done, and all that each one of them had made away with, and all that they had given over to destruction.

71And the book was read before the Lord of the sheep, and He took the book from his hand and read it and sealed it and laid it down.
72"And forthwith I saw how the shepherds pastured for twelve hours, and behold three of those sheep turned back and came and entered and began to build up all that had fallen down of that house; but the wild boars tried to hinder them, but they were not able. 73And they began again to build as before, and they reared up that tower, and it was named the high tower; and they began again to place a table before the tower, but all the bread on it was polluted and not pure. 74And as touching all this the eyes of those sheep were blinded so that they saw not, and the eyes of their shepherds likewise; and they delivered them in large numbers to their shepherds for destruction, and they trampled the sheep with their feet and devoured them.

75And the Lord of the sheep remained unmoved till all the sheep were dispersed over the field and mingled with them, and they did not save them out of the hand of the beasts.
76"And this one who wrote the book carried it up, and showed it and read it before the Lord of the sheep, and implored Him on their account, and besought Him on their account as he showed Him all the doings of the shepherds, and gave testimony before Him against all the shepherds.
77"And he took the actual book and laid it down beside Him and departed."

Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

vinsight4u · Jul 6, 2011

Achilles6129 · Jul 12, 2011

vinsight4u said:
bump

Hmm. So what was the purpose of the bump?

I still think that the days being shortened means that the days are literally shortened down to 16 hours, as it describes in Revelation.

yeshuasavedme · Jul 13, 2011

Achilles6129 said:
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Mt. 24:22

The "days being shortened" does not refer to the time of the tribulation being shortened, as some on this forum have supposed, but rather that the literal 24 hour days are actually shortened. So instead of a 24 hour day, we will actually have a 16 hour day. This is actually shown in the book of Revelation:

"And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise." Rev. 8:12

1/3 of the day is 4 hours, and 1/3 of the night is 4 hours, which is 8 hours total. Therefore, the day will actually be shortened to 16 hours, which is what Christ is describing in Mt. 24:22, not the time of the tribulation being shortened.

Christ says that unless the days were shortened (that is, to 16 hours) no flesh should be saved. I personally believe that this is because the trumpet judgments overlap with the vial judgments, and I think that the day is shortened to 16 hours after the sun is given power to "scorch men with fire":

"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory." Rev. 16:8-9

For anyone who's ever been through a heat wave, you know that it is life threatening (especially for the elderly and young). This vial is life threatening, and I think that the days are shortened to 16 hours directly after this vial in order to protect the elect from the sun. If the day were not shortened to 16 hours here, but instead remained 24 hours, no one would survive the heat wave brought on by the fourth vial.

However, the question is, how is the day shortened to 16 hours? The only way this would be possible is for the earth's rotation to be sped up, which would require simply a tremendous amount of force. It is impossible that an asteroid could "hit" the earth and speed up it's rotation, b/c in order to speed up the earth's rotation by 8 hours the asteroid would impact the planet at such an incredible velocity that it would vaporize everything.

I think that the only real way to speed up the earth’s rotation without destroying it entirely is to apply some sort of gravitational force from outside the earth which would speed up its rotation. However, in order for that to happen a pretty large planet like Jupiter would be needed. Other than that, I really don’t know how the earth’s rotation could possibly be sped up in order to make a day 16 hours, but it is one of the things that is going to happen in Revelation.

You are correct about the days being "shortened" and not the number of them cut off. The word for "shorten" means "to mutilate/cut off".

But otherwise, the Word of God shows that the earth is fixed in place and does not rotate, spin, tilt, revolve, etc, but the stretched out Shamayim - expanded on day 2 of creation week between the cut waters/mayim of earth do turn about the earth, and so do al the heavenly bodies in them revolve about the fixed globe called earth.

However, the Word also states that in that time of the tribulation, the earth will
move out of its place
be turned upside down
jump about as a hunted roe
stagger as a drunken man-
and the seasons will be backwards.

So not only is the sun struck, and shines hotter smiting the earth and its life with great heat, and also increasing the shine of the moon so that it shines as the sun does, now, but the earth is moved as stated above; and because of the great heat burning on earth, the days and nights are cut off from shining for one third of their time, and so the 24 hour day will be 16 hours, total.

PS: I thought this had been discussed before, and did not note it was an old thread til I had posted...But it is still relevant.

vinsight4u · Jul 13, 2011

Achilles6129 · Jul 13, 2011

vinsight4u said:
So do I. Daniel 12 has specific days keyed off as to what events will happen at those days.
I bumped your thread as I found it was quite interesting. I also wonder if you want to discuss the trumpets and vials, as I don't see them as overlappng.

I see the trumpet plagues as the ones that must end before men can enter into the temple in heaven.
I see the vials as when the angels will go and pour, instead of standing before God when they sound their trumpets. I see the vials as will be full that are given from the east to the angels in Rev. 15, and then filled again with what John called "the seven last plagues".

Hey, sorry about not anwering your post before, I just saw it.

Sure, we can discuss the trumpets and vials. I will post about it later.

As I have said before, I think that we are several decades away from the return of Christ. Remember that the bridegroom tarries.

vinsight4u · Jul 13, 2011

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