The Date of Pascha

OrthodoxyUSA · Aug 12, 2010

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mar 16:9 Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Jhn 20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Forgive me...

Standing Up · Aug 12, 2010

OrthodoxyUSA said:
That doesn't do anything to substantiate what The Church of Jerusalem taught.

Forgive me...

Had a feeling that wasn't what you had asked.

The short answer is that Jerusalem would have taught the way Jesus and the apostles observed Passover. Christ died on the 14th and the day of the 14th changed each year. See the scripture quotes.

The Palestinian bishops, after the Jewish downfall, seem to have been the first to comprehend the propriety of adopting the more Catholic usage; and our author presided over a council in Cæsarea, of which he was bishop, assisted by Narcissus, bishop of Jerusalem, with Cassius of Tyre and Clarus of Ptolemais, which confirmed it.
ANF08. The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementia, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The "catholic usage" refers to Rome's observation of Sunday. Here's a comment from that council:

Endeavour also to send abroad copies of our epistle among all the churches, so that those who easily deceive their own souls may not be able to lay the blame on us. We would have you know, too, that in Alexandria37863786 [Note, the authority of Alexandria is quoted, not that of Rome.] also they observe the festival on the same day as ourselves. For the Paschal letters are sent from us to them, and from them to us: so that we observe the holy day in unison and together.
-same-

Remember that Alexandria taught that Christ died on the 14th and about 175ad they first taught that the 14th that year was a Friday.

So, at first they (Jerusalem and Alexandria, not Rome) taught that Christ died on the 14th and they observed it on whatever day it fell. Sometime after 70ad and probably about 175ad, they adopted the "catholic usage" of a Sunday observation that arose from Sixtus.

Rick Otto · Aug 12, 2010

quote=OrthodoxyUSA;55449639]Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

So He had already risen BEFORe Sunday

Mar 16:9 Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Now He's up ON Sunday.

Jhn 20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Now it's Sunday.

Now you see Him, now you don't.

cobweb · Aug 12, 2010

Rick Otto said:
So He had already risen BEFORe Sunday

Now He's up ON Sunday.

Now it's Sunday.

Now you see Him, now you don't.

I fail to see the problem. The women came to the tomb very early Sunday morning around dawn. Christ rose during the night.

We announce the Resurrection in our Church at midnight.

Standing Up · Aug 12, 2010

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

So He had already risen BEFORe Sunday.

SUp--That's what it says. The word for dawn refers to sunset, not sunrise.

Mar 16:9 Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Now He's up ON Sunday.

SUp-- gotta put the comma in the correct spot. Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week He appeared to Mary ...

Jhn 20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Now it's Sunday.

SUp--and now they all say the same thing. As Saturday (Sabbath) ends, Mary is on her way. There is an earthquake and the stone is rolled back and Jesus Christ appears in glory. Mary eventually arrives (dark, early the first day) and finds the stone gone, the tomb empty, then later on Sunday the first day He appears to her.

OrthodoxyUSA · Aug 12, 2010

Standing Up said:
Had a feeling that wasn't what you had asked.

The short answer is that Jerusalem would have taught the way Jesus and the apostles observed Passover. Christ died on the 14th and the day of the 14th changed each year. See the scripture quotes.

The Palestinian bishops, after the Jewish downfall, seem to have been the first to comprehend the propriety of adopting the more Catholic usage; and our author presided over a council in Cæsarea, of which he was bishop, assisted by Narcissus, bishop of Jerusalem, with Cassius of Tyre and Clarus of Ptolemais, which confirmed it.
ANF08. The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementia, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The "catholic usage" refers to Rome's observation of Sunday. Here's a comment from that council:

Endeavour also to send abroad copies of our epistle among all the churches, so that those who easily deceive their own souls may not be able to lay the blame on us. We would have you know, too, that in Alexandria37863786 [Note, the authority of Alexandria is quoted, not that of Rome.] also they observe the festival on the same day as ourselves. For the Paschal letters are sent from us to them, and from them to us: so that we observe the holy day in unison and together.
-same-

Remember that Alexandria taught that Christ died on the 14th and about 175ad they first taught that the 14th that year was a Friday.

So, at first they (Jerusalem and Alexandria, not Rome) taught that Christ died on the 14th and they observed it on whatever day it fell. Sometime after 70ad and probably about 175ad, they adopted the "catholic usage" of a Sunday observation that arose from Sixtus.

Ah... no evidence then... just your assumption of what Jerusalem must have taught based on your findings.

Forgive me...

OrthodoxyUSA · Aug 12, 2010

Standing Up said:
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

So He had already risen BEFORe Sunday.

SUp--That's what it says. The word for dawn refers to sunset, not sunrise.

Mar 16:9 Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Now He's up ON Sunday.

SUp-- gotta put the comma in the correct spot. Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week He appeared to Mary ...

Jhn 20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Now it's Sunday.

SUp--and now they all say the same thing. As Saturday (Sabbath) ends, Mary is on her way. There is an earthquake and the stone is rolled back and Jesus Christ appears in glory. Mary eventually arrives (dark, early the first day) and finds the stone gone, the tomb empty, then later on Sunday the first day He appears to her.

I've heard the 'comma' story. It's not helpful.

Forgive me...

Standing Up · Aug 12, 2010

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Ah... no evidence then... just your assumption of what Jerusalem must have taught based on your findings.

Forgive me...

Well, think of it differently, why would those in Jerusalem do things differently that what they did with Jesus Christ?

Besides, it says that they did adopt the Roman (catholic) usage.

PS. Wanted to add that still your OP has no source for the claim that Jesus died on the 13th. NO scripture. NO early church father. NO Council. NO Tradition. So, brother Ortho, let's not talk of my so-called assumptions when I have shown numerous quotes from numerous sources all saying that Jesus died on the 14th.

Rick Otto · Aug 12, 2010

the comma thing worked for me.
What's up with those translators using "dawn" ?
It doesn't dawn on me why they would.

Standing Up · Aug 13, 2010

Rick Otto said:
the comma thing worked for me.
What's up with those translators using "dawn" ?
It doesn't dawn on me why they would.

Like the comma, just depends on how you've been taught.

Mt. 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Lk. 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Dawn and drew on are the same epiphosko (upon light). Keep in mind that passover was on the 14th, which is the first full moon after the vernal equinox. The sun sets and the moon rises directly "across" from each other to provide 24 hours of light (handy when you travel at night out of Egypt).

Everyone agrees that Lk. 23:54 takes place at sunset. That alone tells us the same word at Mt. 28:1 also refers to sunset (moon rise). Mt. 28:1 also specifies at the end of the sabbath. That is about 6pm roman time Saturday. Sunset.

Besides, the Greek word orthros is dawn (sun rise) had Matthew or Luke wanted to convey that message, but they didn't use that word.

MT. 28:1

ASV Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

YNG And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

If it's the eve of or late on the sabbath, that is Saturday right before sunset. The women are on the way to see the tomb.

Mt. 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
v3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
v4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].

When my tomb stone is rolled back in the future, who comes forth? When your tomb stone is rolled back in the future, who comes forth? When Jesus Christ's tomb stone was rolled back, who came forth?

OrthodoxyUSA · Aug 13, 2010

cobweb said:
I fail to see the problem. The women came to the tomb very early Sunday morning around dawn. Christ rose during the night.

We announce the Resurrection in our Church at midnight.

As do the Antiochians.

Forgive me...

OrthodoxyUSA · Aug 13, 2010

And in the frozen land of nadir they were forced to eat Sir Robins minstrels, and there was much rejoicing.

Forgive me...

Rick Otto · Aug 13, 2010

Being a minstrel has always been a risky profession.

Rick Otto · Aug 13, 2010

Standing Up said:
Like the comma, just depends on how you've been taught.

Mt. 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Lk. 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Dawn and drew on are the same epiphosko (upon light). Keep in mind that passover was on the 14th, which is the first full moon after the vernal equinox. The sun sets and the moon rises directly "across" from each other to provide 24 hours of light (handy when you travel at night out of Egypt).

Everyone agrees that Lk. 23:54 takes place at sunset. That alone tells us the same word at Mt. 28:1 also refers to sunset (moon rise). Mt. 28:1 also specifies at the end of the sabbath. That is about 6pm roman time Saturday. Sunset.

Besides, the Greek word orthros is dawn (sun rise) had Matthew or Luke wanted to convey that message, but they didn't use that word.

MT. 28:1

ASV Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

YNG And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

If it's the eve of or late on the sabbath, that is Saturday right before sunset. The women are on the way to see the tomb.

Mt. 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
v3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
v4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].

When my tomb stone is rolled back in the future, who comes forth? When your tomb stone is rolled back in the future, who comes forth? When Jesus Christ's tomb stone was rolled back, who came forth?

I like rollbacks.

Standing Up · Aug 13, 2010

Rick Otto said:
I like rollbacks.

This thread has hit a wal.

Rick Otto · Aug 13, 2010

That'smart.
I been givin' everybody's report button a break & readin' this page from thatchurch history link you gave me.
I would think the legalist urge would've been satisfied to keep Nisan 14 with strict adherance to apostolic tradition.
To dissect tradition by declaring this one "mere custom" or "practice" seems misrepresentative.

Standing Up · Aug 14, 2010

Rick Otto said:
That'smart.

Think we got it covered. But that's not all, folks.

I been givin' everybody's report button a break & readin' this page from thatchurch history link you gave me.

It is interesting, the depart the faith and the rise of priest and sacrifice. How about that notion of sacrifice as Arian. First it's bread and wine, then it is Christ. There was a time when Christ was not. Explains that one too.

I would think the legalist urge would've been satisfied to keep Nisan 14 with strict adherance to apostolic tradition.
To dissect tradition by declaring this one "mere custom" or "practice" seems misrepresentative.

Ahhh, so something MORE was going on, wasn't there.

Standing Up · Aug 14, 2010

OrthodoxyUSA said:
As do the Antiochians.

Forgive me...

So, are you familiar with the Synaxarion? And do you have a link?

zeke37 · Aug 15, 2010

Six Days Before the Passover (John 12:1) - Appendix to the Companion Bible

the conclusion of the appendix

It will be seen from the above that we have neither power nor authority to alter or shift any day or date; or to change the order or position of any of the events recorded in the Holy Writ. Each day is marked by a return to Bethany during the last week (up to the Preparation Day); and each day is filled with the recorded events. It follows, therefore, that the Lord was crucified on our Wednesday; was buried on that day before sunset; and remained "three days and three nights" in the tomb, as foretold by Him in Matt. 12:40; rising from the dead on "the third day", "the first day of the week". The fixed days and dates, at either end, hold the whole period as in a vice, and place the whole subject on a sure foundation.

I challenge you both (or whomever) to look at the appendix and see if there is anything that you disagree with...
it seems to me that you both are incorrect about the date, as far as the day of the week goes...

JacktheCatholic · Aug 15, 2010

MOD HAT ON

Moving thread to Church History

MOD HAT OFF

The Date of Pascha

Well-Known Member

On and on

The Dude Abides

Cranky octogenarian at heart

On and on

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

On and on

The Dude Abides

On and on

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Dude Abides

The Dude Abides

On and on

The Dude Abides

On and on

On and on

IMO...

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency