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JeromesScribe

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For those Christian's who continually apologize for the Crusades, well please don't. Stop your appeasement.

The Crusades were a DELAYED Christian reaction to the initial Muslim jihad of the 7th and 8th centuries that had overrun many Christian provinces including Palestine, Syria, Egypt, North Africa and Spain. THe loss of the Holy Land to Muslim armies in the initial Islamic jihad of the 7th century was deeply mourned across the Christian world but no action was taken by the Christians at the time.

The Crusades were also a reponse to ongoing Muslim attacks against the Christians of the Byzantine Empire (now modern Turkey) which continued after the first jihad. Two Byzantine emperors appealed to the Pope for help (1074 and 1095) and eventually, more than 300 years after the initial Muslim conquest, the European Christians came to the aid of their beleaguered fellow Christians in the Middle East. A little to late.

So fellow Christians stop apologizing. Learn history and not from an Islamic perspective.
 

NewToLife

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Err as an Orthodox I want to point out that the Orthodox have at no time asked Rome to launch a holy war. Indeed we find the idea of a holy war to be an oxymoron.

Asides of anything else the Crusades directly weakened the Byzantine Empire contributing to it's eventual fall to the Turks.
 
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czach8

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Yeaaaaaaah well. I will still stick to my principles where, "2 wrongs don't make it right". Thanks for the info. Although, not convincing. Peace.
 
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Ame

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Yes, we were so justified in going around and killing and converting many people against their will just because they were in the "Holy Land" and we didn't want to share. How we did show that Christian love by going on numerous sprees of warfare. We were just reacting in a proper way to all of the unholiness, just like in the Inquisition and the With Trials. Who in their right mind would think that there's anything wrong with that?
</sarcasm>
 
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traversinginfinity

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The Christians weren't any more barbaric than anyone else, certainly not the Muslims. People in general just sucked back then, pretty much.
 
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sunrise0

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Crusades (1095-1291)
The first Crusade began in 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
In Semlin and Wieselburg in Hungary thousands were slain. [WW23]
In the towns of Nikaia, Xerigordon in Asia Minor thousands murdered. [WW25-27]
Until January of 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles had been conquered (number of slain unknown). [WW30]
After Antioch was conquered (6/3/1098), between 10,000 and 60,000 were killed.
28/06/1098: 100,000 Moslems (including women and children) were killed. [WW32-35]. Here the Christians "… did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents, save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
At Marra (Maraat Al-numan) 11/12/98, thousands were killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemy were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem was conquered in 15/07/1099 with more than 60,000 victims (Jewish and Moslem, men, women and children). [WW37-40] In the words of one witness: "There [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "… happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
The Archbishop of Tyre who was an eyewitness wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all that looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot. An ominous sight, which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "… even the following summer in all of Palestine, the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 12/08/1099: 200,000 heathens slaughtered "In the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 12/04/1204 Constantinople sacked, the number of victims was in the many thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Until the fall of Akkon in 1291 there were probably 20 million victims of the crusades, in Palestine and the Moslem territories alone. [WW224]

 
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Rainbear

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While i am not against religion, the crusades definitely were a blotch on christianity's resume.

Heres some crusade stuff:

-The First Crusade was launched in 1095 with the battle cry "Deus Vult" (God wills it), a mandate to destroy infidels in the Holy Land. Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon "the infidel among us," Jews in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes or hiding places and hacked to death or burned alive. Then the religious legions plundered their way 2,000 miles to Jerusalem, where they killed virtually every inhabitant, "purifying" the symbolic city. Cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote: "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even to the horses' bridles, by the just and marvelous judgment of God."

-In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in 1191, he ordered 3,000 captives -- many of them women and children -- taken outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no consequence. As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade: "The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified."

However, both sides (christian and muslim) are equally guilty.

Islamic jihads (holy wars), mandated by the Koran, killed millions over 12 centuries. In early years, Muslim armies spread the faith rapidly: east to India and west to Morocco. Then splintering sects branded other Muslims as infidels and declared jihads against them. The Kharijis battled Sunni rulers. The Azariqis decreed death to all "sinners" and their families. In 1804 a Sudanese holy man, Usman dan Fodio, waged a bloody jihad that broke the religious sway of the Sultan of Gobir. In the 1850s another Sudanese mystic, 'Umar al-Hajj, led a barbaric jihad to convert pagan African tribes -- with massacres, beheadings and a mass execution of 300 hostages. In the 1880s a third Sudanese holy man, Muhammad Ahmed, commanded a jihad that destroyed a 10,000-man Egyptian army and wiped out defenders of Khartoum led by British general Charles "Chinese" Gordon.
 
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Brennin

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Basileus Alexios requested aid of some sort from Pope Urban against the Turks. However, you are correct in that the 4th Crusade, which led to the sacking of Constantinople, was an absolute act of barbarity from which the Byzantine Empire never recovered. (Pope Urban had nothing to do with that, though.)
 
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Steezie

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The official reason given for them was attacks on Christian pilgrims by "Saracens" who were basically Bedouin tribes who were outside the control of local Caliphs. The Muslims were held fairly at bay in Eastern Europe at that time.

Again, these were mostly Bedouin tribes who were not under the control of the Muslim Caliphs at the time. Allthough in fairness, the Caliphs probably did very little to march out and crush the Bedouin to end the attacks.

So fellow Christians stop apologizing. Learn history and not from an Islamic perspective.
Im curious as to your perspective on the Massacre of Ma'arra.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The OP is correct that the Crusades are often told in a biased way. Neither side is sinless. But the Church takes a lot of flack for things they were not responsible for as though the Pope was running the whole show.
 
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Kristos

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Yeah, like when they sacked Constantinople and looted the Churches!
 
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E.C.

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The Crusades were no delayed reaction.

If the West really cared, they would have called up the Crusades earlier. Or at least tried to help the Byzantines keep Islam at bay.

Either way, the Crusades resulted in a few things: 1) the fall of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire. 2) continued animosity between the Roman West and the Orthodox East. 3) failure to halt the Muslim advance.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I can see where #2 would be an issue for you. But that was how many centuries ago? And what do we really know about what happened then? Were any of us there?

I wonder how history will record this "War on Terror" in Iraq in the future. In 1000 years what point of view will be taken?
 
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E.C.

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We may not have been there, but there are written records. More importantly, there are the things known that are not written, but were handed down (kinda like oral tradition).

As for your other question, I ask this: At the rate we're going, will there be a world?
 
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ParsonJefferson

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First of all, The Crusades are a perfect example of what happens when Church marries State.

Regardless of that, they actually were a reaction to Muslim aggression - a fact too many people conveniently forget.

Unfortunately, the blood-lust brought on by the Crusades - and subsequently, the Inquisition - wrought indescribable horrors, all of them "supposedly" in the name of Christ.


People can be horrible savages, regardless of what they claim as a religion.
 
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kepha31

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Unfortunately, the blood-lust brought on by the Crusades - and subsequently, the Inquisition - wrought indescribable horrors, all of them "supposedly" in the name of Christ.

This is a gross exaggeration, the "blood lust" and "indescribable horrors" are mostly anticatholic propaganda. Bible colleges no longer teach that post-reformist rhetoric because it is so grossly inaccurate.

I see nobody has to give sources when making lame assertions, and even if sources were given, they are quoting other hate cultists who have no real credibility.

Anytime you want to do a body count and see who had the most atrocities, using only Protestant sources, I'd be glad to oblige you. The Protestant Inquisition was much worse.

So what does any of this prove? That our spiritual ancestors were sinners? Gee, what a startling revelation.

Get your facts straight.


The Real History of the Crusades
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

Centuries of false propaganda have convinced most people, good Catholics included, that the Inquisition was one of the most evil institutions ever devised. Presented here is a long-overdue defence in which Dr. Marian Horvat, Professor of Medieval History, sets the record straight by completely debunking five of the most common myths about the Holy Inquisition.
http://www.geocities.com/militantis/inquisition2.html

A modern historiography of the Inquisition, MOST OF IT BY NON-CATHOLIC HISTORIANS, has resulted in a careful, relatively precise, and on the whole rather moderate image of the institution, some of the most important works being: Edward Peters, Inquisition; Paul F. Grendler, The Roman Inquisition and the Venetian Press; John Tedeschi, The Prosecution of Heresy; and Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition.


Whenever anyone abuses their power, they are sinning. Yes, abuses of power did occur during the Crusades and the Inquisition, but when it did occur, it was sin, NOT CHURCH TEACHING. An honest examination of the facts reveals this.



 
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Axion

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This is absolute nonsense!

Where have you got this stuff? Not from any legitimate academic history.
 
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