The Crusades

[Dream]

Were the Crusades considered a just war?

 

[Rising_Suns]

From what I gather, the first one was, but somehow it became a gradual degredation from there on in.

 

[Lifesaver]

Yes. But as far as I know they were more than merely just; they were holy wars.
Abuses happened, no doubt (as they do in all wars); but their goal was noble and just, and they were in defense of the holy Catholic Church.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Yes. But as far as I know they were more than merely just; they were holy wars.
Abuses happened, no doubt (as they do in all wars); but their goal was noble and just, and they were in defense of the holy Catholic Church.

Yes, agreed. And at the same time, we should not sweep under the rug the atrocities that occured during this time. We should, for example, mourn with our Orthodox brethren over how Catholics took Constantinople and the atrocities committed there.

But yes, Muslims were originally the initiators of the violence, and so the Crusades were originally a defensive measure, and in my opinion, a justified response to the attacks. If the Church had done nothing, eastern Christianity would have been destroyed completely.

 

[Brother Simon]

Can anyone tell me how to explain the Crusades to others? My mother, a convert to Judaism for example, uses how the Church killed Muslims simply because of what they believed as an attack against me.

I also get the one from a girl in my biology class that says "Government and the Church shouldn't be mixed; last time it happened people were being burnt at the stake." or something to that effect.

I am very sound doctrinally, but when it comes to things like the Inquisitions or other seemingly violent actions, I don't know how to explain it. I just rely on the fact that I know the Church is safeguarded by the Holy Spirit...but of course my friends and family don't feel the same way.

Thanks!

With Love always,
Simon

 

[Rising_Suns]

I would just remind her that, originally, the Crusades were a necessary defensive action to save eastern Christianity, and that they shouldn't condemn a Church based on the actions of of a few misled people. Although the Catholic Church is free from teaching error, she is still comprised of fallible people who are subject to being corrupted, just as any person is. We do not try to hide the fact that some gravely misguided christians have commited atrocities in the "name of God"; no denomination or religion is exempt from such horrendous acts. What is important is what the Church actually teaches, and her fruits far outweigh the mistakes that a few have taken along the way.

 

[Brother Simon]

I would just remind her that, originally, the Crusades were a necessary defensive action to save eastern Christianity, and that they shouldn't condemn a Church based on the actions of of a few misled people. Although the Catholic Church is free from teaching error, she is still comprised of fallible people who are subject to being corrupted just as any person is. We do not try to hide the fact that some gravely misguded christians have commited atrocities in the "name of God".

Can you explain to me about the defense part? Was Christianity attacked first?

I don't know much about the Crusades. I haven't studied much on that time period..actually the most I know about the Crusades is about how Saint Francis was unable to fight in them because of his health and ultimately the mission he was given from God.

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions!

In Love,
Simon

 

[Rising_Suns]

Was Christianity attacked first?.

Yes. From the time of the early Church, Christians enjoyed freedom to visit the Holy Land freely. But in the 11th century, Muslims invaded Jeusalem and began persecuting any Christians they saw.

After depleting every resource for a peacefull resolution, Pope Urban II ordered the first Crusade for the protection of Christians in the Holy Land against the Muslims agressors. He called Christians from all over Europe to stand united under the flag of the Church to battle the onslaught of the muslims.

The great tradegy in all this is when they entered the city, the christian armies of the west killed every inhabitant they could find. Of course this atrocity and others like it cannot be excused, and it is a sin that the Church deeply regrets and apologizes for. Pope John Paul II has repteadly asked forgiveness in the name of the Catholic Church for such crimes commited by Catholics in the name of God.

 

[Brother Simon]

Yes. From the time of the early Church, Christians enjoyed freedom to visit the Holy Land freely. But in the 11th century, Muslims invaded Jeusalem and began persecuting any Christians they saw.

After depleting every resource for a peacefull resolution, Pope Urban II ordered the first Crusade for the protection of Christians in the Holy Land against the Muslims agressors. He called Christians from all over Europe to stand united under the flag of the Church to battle the onslaught of the muslims.

The great tradegy in all this is when they entered the city, the christian armies of the west killed every inhabitant they could find. Of course this atrocity and others like it cannot be excused, and it is a sin that the Church deeply regrets and apologizes for. Pope John Paul II has repteadly asked forgiveness in the name of the Catholic Church for such crimes commited by Catholics in the name of God.

Thank you! This part: "After depleting every resource for a peacefull resolution," especially means a lot.

In thanks,
Simon

 

[KennySe]

Mohammedism was spreading, even into Europe in Spain, through the sword.
The Church saved Christianity.

 

[Irenaeus]

Islam had been laying waste to Christian lands for 400 years before the 1st Crusade was even launched, in the 11th century, when Pope Urban II received desperate pleas for aid from the Byzantine Emperor.

Actually, St. Bernard of Clairveux did a great deal of preaching and rallying for the cause; while still decrying the abuses that went on.

There was on old song which I once read from a Doctor on Medieval History, it went something like this,

Our faith was strong in th’ Orient,
It ruled in all of Asia,
In Moorish lands and Africa.
But now for us these lands are gone
’Twould even grieve the hardest stone....
Four sisters of our Church you find,
They’re of the patriarchic kind:
Constantinople, Alexandria,
Jerusalem, Antiochia.
But they’ve been forfeited and sacked
And soon the head will be attacked.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

 

[QuagDabPeg]

Pope Urbans call for crusade and Osama bin Ladins fatwah against america have a disturbing number of similarities. The Crusaders were ruthless and killed not only Muslims but our Orthodox brothers and sisters as well. The so called "justification" was over the sacking of a church, but the Muslims had already rebuilt it and apologized! I think it's wrong how Catholics think they have to find some justification for every action of the church, even when it means trying to justify terrible things. Just say sorry, it was wrong. Admitting a mistake doesn't mean that everything is wrong.

 

[Irenaeus]

Quag,

For 400 years before the 1st Crusade Muslims were sacking Christian lands, making Christians convert or pay taxes. They were getting very close to Constantinople itself.

It had a lot much more to do with than one Church and pilgrimage privledges.

 

[Lifesaver]

Pope Urbans call for crusade and Osama bin Ladins fatwah against america have a disturbing number of similarities. The Crusaders were ruthless and killed not only Muslims but our Orthodox brothers and sisters as well. The so called "justification" was over the sacking of a church, but the Muslims had already rebuilt it and apologized! I think it's wrong how Catholics think they have to find some justification for every action of the church, even when it means trying to justify terrible things. Just say sorry, it was wrong. Admitting a mistake doesn't mean that everything is wrong.

If you think the Crusades were wrong, QDP, you think that Portugal and Spain belong justly to Muslims.
Bin Laden said he considered the loss of Andaluzia (the Iberian Peninsula: Portugal and Spain) a tragedy. Al Qaeda and other groups want to conquer it again.

Therefore, if one thinks the Crusades were unjust, they agree with Bin Laden and give written or oral support to his cause.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Our faith was strong in th’ Orient,
It ruled in all of Asia,
In Moorish lands and Africa.
But now for us these lands are gone
’Twould even grieve the hardest stone....
Four sisters of our Church you find,
They’re of the patriarchic kind:
Constantinople, Alexandria,
Jerusalem, Antiochia.
But they’ve been forfeited and sacked
And soon the head will be attacked.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

Interesting prophecy, and perhaps this is something we should be watchful for, but we should not harbor fear. Fear is the Devil's playpen.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Just say sorry, it was wrong. Admitting a mistake doesn't mean that everything is wrong.

The Church has already begged forgiveness for the atrocities that some men did in the name of God, even though these armies did such things behind the back of Pope Urban, like the sacking of Constantinople.

 

[Michelina]

The simple historical fact is that Islam was spread by the sword. It is by its nature (and "Divine" injunction) expansionistic. The Spanish didn't drive them out of the Iberian peninsula until the 15th century and repelled reapeated efforts to retake their lucrative 'colony'. Again, in 1571 and 1572, massive invasions were attempted against Europe. Early in the 20th century, Catholic historian and philosopher Hilaire Belloc predicted a resurgence of Islamic expansionism because that is the nature of this formerly slumbering but now wide-awake sleeping giant. The evidence of this resurgence is in the newspapers all the time, in the Phillipines, South Asia and Africa, not to mention the mideast where millions are dedicated to the extermination of Israel.

People should study history more. If you don't know it, you're doomed to repeat it.

 

[artnalex]

Repeat what?

 

[Irenaeus]

Rising Suns,

That was not a prophecy. It was a song sung by minstrels during the Middle Ages. It was a common thing. They knew what was happening.

Sorry for the misunderstandings.

 

[Michelina]

Repeat what?

Weisenheimer.