The crucifix............

[McWilliams]

I am personally troubled when seeing the crucifix on multiple 'christian' sites and blogs which I otherwise enjoy and benefit from.

Is this not a violation of the second commandment? Please comment on why or why not you would agree with the crucifix and/or other drawings of Christ being unacceptable, according to what we've been told in scripture.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I have a beautiful crucifix on my wall at my house, a carryover from my Catholic days.
No it doesn't break the commandment, I don't worship it. It's a rememberance symbol to keep me and my family humble in this world, reminding us everyday of His great sacrifice.




idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:

• the worship of idols (or images)
• the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
• the worship of animals or people
• the use of idols in the worship of God.

I like this quote I found:

St. John[of Damascus] maintains that depicting the invisible God is indeed wrong, but he argues that the incarnation, where "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), indicates that the invisible God became visible, and as a result it is permissible to depict Jesus Christ. He argues: "When He who is bodiless and without form... existing in the form of God, empties Himself and takes the form of a servant in substance and in stature and is found in a body of flesh, then you draw His image..."

This is also were I completely disagree with the Wesminster Confession in regards to "graven images".

Thankyou for listening.

 

[McWilliams]

Why would you cling to a symbol of what God has delivered you from? Rather a reminder of Achan's sin, is it not? When delivered from past sin we are to strive forward toward holiness, without which no man can please the Lord!

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Why would you cling to a symbol of what God has delivered you from? Rather a reminder of Achan's sin, is it not? When delivered from past sin we are to strive forward toward holiness, without which no man can please the Lord!

Because I can.
I honestly don't know what you're getting at here.


Thankyou for listening.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

If you're going to take the second commandment that far then you also have a big problem when it comes to.... Jesus. (in whom the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and who was the manifestation and incarnation of God)

God's problem with graven images is if we worship that and consider that to be an accurate representation of God. (which is ridiculous because God is completely sovereign over all, existing equally in all of time and space. You can't make a statue of a God like that)

A crucifix is simply a reminder of what God did for us. The greatest act of love and justice ever performed was the cross, and I think it's entirely appropriate to be reminded of that through a crucifix.

 

[the particular baptist]

I have a terribly difficult time looking at any representation of the Triune God, either as Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. It never bothered me before i was converted but now to me its on par with pornography. I dont mean just crucifixes, i mean drawings, paintings, sunday school curriculum etc.

James Durham, 17th century Presbyterian devine said something like this, "If one looks at an image of Christ and the image stirs emotion in the person it is then idolatry for it is emotion towards a false image made by the hands of men. If however one looks at an image of Christ and it cause no emotion, then it is in vain, both are sin"

All that being said, i will not bind anyone elses conscience on the matter, but i have to live with mine.

If you're going to take the second commandment that far then you also have a big problem when it comes to.... Jesus. (in whom the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and who was the manifestation and incarnation of God)

Yes but, no one knows what He looks like, so im not okay with imagining it on paper or otherwise, and imo that is the spirit of the 2nd commandment

 

[the particular baptist]

its on par with pornography.

I didnt intend to be crass, please forgive this sinner if i have offended. I simply wanted to illustrate the seriousness of the matter as it relates to my conscience.

 

[Epiphoskei]

If creating an image of Christ not for the sake of worshipping it violates the Second Commandment's commandment against idolatry, so does making an image of "anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" for reasons other than worshipping it. If you can't carve an image of Christ for this reason, you can't carve an image of a cow either. This is the position of Islam and certain groups of Jews, but has never been a particularly reformed understanding of the Second Commandment. An image is not automatically an idol, so it's never been that command that causes me to be bothered by Crucifixes.

But they do bother me, for reasons outlined by J.I. Packer in Knowing God. His argument, if I recall right, was that images of Christ communicate an understanding of the nature of Christ visually which represent not necesarally the Biblical understanding of Christ, but the artist's perception of Christ. Thus, for me, it has much more to do with Sola Scriptura than the second commandment. All we know Biblically about the spiritual and physical agony of Christ comes from "I thirst," "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me," and certain Old Testament prophecies of the passion. Therefore a Crucifix's representations of the suffering of Christ as shown in the way his body and face are displayed are not necesarally faithful to what exactly happened, and at any rate, are derived from the imagination, not the Bible.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I have no problem with a Crucifix as a work of art, but I appose using any image as a part worship.

Epiposkei's comment is very good.

Kenith

 

[Erinwilcox]

I have a terribly difficult time looking at any representation of the Triune God, either as Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. It never bothered me before i was converted but now to me its on par with pornography. I dont mean just crucifixes, i mean drawings, paintings, sunday school curriculum etc.

James Durham, 17th century Presbyterian devine said something like this, "If one looks at an image of Christ and the image stirs emotion in the person it is then idolatry for it is emotion towards a false image made by the hands of men. If however one looks at an image of Christ and it cause no emotion, then it is in vain, both are sin"

All that being said, i will not bind anyone elses conscience on the matter, but i have to live with mine.




Yes but, no one knows what He looks like, so im not okay with imagining it on paper or otherwise, and imo that is the spirit of the 2nd commandment

I agree. There are a lot of different thoughts on this topic, and a lot of Christians disagree about it. For me, my conscience extends to pictures/drawings, movies, etc. Honestly, the thought of actually "playing Jesus" in a film scares me to death--who would I be to play the most holy One? We do not know what Jesus looked like (except that he probably wasn't the white guy with the beard that most artists depict him as), and why would we try to imagine that? I LOVE the movie Ben Hur, and I think that one of the coolest aspects of it is that the face of Christ is never shown. He is a central figure, but only his back is seen.

As for the crucifix (aside from my above statement), I personally believe that Jesus is risen . . . and I would rather think of Him as the risen, reigning Lord than a mere man still hanging on a cross. He's not still there, and I like to emphasize the fact that He ROSE from the DEAD! How utterly amazing is that? What other god in history has done THAT? Putting aside my thoughts on pictures or images of Christ, I still have a problem with the crucifix for these reasons.

 

[bradfordl]

1. The only image of Christ given to us in His word are the sacraments. What would motivate men to go beyond this?

2. Lacking any physical description of Christ during His earthly ministry in His word, any depiction thereof would by necessity be a false depiction, and thus a false god.

3. If any depiction of Christ were accurate, it should move us to worship, and if it did not it would be vain.

4. Since no image of Christ can be accurate, to worship it is idolatry.

5. We all know that viewing pornography can evoke in us sinful reactions. We don't overcome those reactions by plastering porn on our walls and do our best to suppress them, we instead avoid them and call for their prohibition. I doubt any of you can say you never got the 'warm fuzzies' from looking at one of these images of Christ, and that, dear friends, was idolatrous worship rising up in your flesh. Why do we take the opposite strategy when dealing with those images than we do with porn?

6. The fact that many denoms and folks dear to us accept these images should have no bearing on this subject. The only authority is the word of God, and when what men approve contradicts that word, we are to follow the scriptures.

If creating an image of Christ not for the sake of worshipping it violates the Second Commandment's commandment against idolatry, so does making an image of "anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" for reasons other than worshipping it. If you can't carve an image of Christ for this reason, you can't carve an image of a cow either.

The prohibition against these depicting things other than that of a representation of God is against creating them for the purpose of worship. All of those can be depicted without any motive of worship. No image of God can be created without any motive of worship. Please explain what possible motive other than worship could be behind depicting God? So that we can appreciate the beauty of His visage as we might a pretty horse? What visage would that be?

Lots more could be said on the subject, but that's enough for me. See Westminster Larger Catechism Question #109 for scripture references .

 

[McWilliams]

Isaiah 53 gives the closest thing to a description and is definitely no where near how humans describe or depict Him:

Isaiah 53:2
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

 

[McWilliams]

Seems pretty clear:

Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature: Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense: Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.

 

[Epiphoskei]

I'm still not sold on the second commandment argument.

The commandment says "you shall not make for yourself any graven image" and "you shall not bow down to it or worship it." We regard this as only one commandment, not two, such that there's no sin in making a sculpture or a carving of an animal, provided you do not worship it; the "graven image" of the first half of the commandment needs to be for the express purpose of the forbidden worship of the second half of the commandment in order to be prohibited. And I do not believe I will find anyone on this forum who will dissent and accept the Islamic or historic Jewish position of no pictures of animals at any time.

Now if that is the case, we cannot allow that an image of Christ not made for the express purpose of worship somehow is exempted from the above interpretation and may still be condemned if not made as an object of worship.

It's Sola Scriptura, not the second commandment, that convinces me.

 

[Faith.Man]

In context, here are the first three commandments:

Exo 20:1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exo 20:6 but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(NASB)

As a former Roman Catholic, I would not like to see Protestants and other non-denominational Christians embracing things the Reformation put a stop to. I don't want to see false images of Christ on the cross, or statues of Mary and the saints, or statues of angels, etc.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Certainly not, but it's a bit of a stretch to say every image of Christ is automatically an object of worship.

 

[bradfordl]

Calvin - Institutes 2.8.17

There is no such thing as an innocent religious image.

 

[Epiphoskei]

What defines "religious image?" Surely the worship or use in worship thereof. Which places us in the same position: an image, not for the purpose of worship, cannot violate the second commandment, no matter what it represents.

 

[McWilliams]

Any drawing or image or representation of Christ done by man is a LIE and therefore is blasphemous as it does not and cannot depict Him in truth as man has no knowledge of an accurate appearance of Him, which would be impossible as He is fully God and fully man. He is to be worshiped in spirit and truth.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I'm not going to hell, nor blaspheming for keeping a crucifix in my house.


Since the "graven image" thing has been taken totally out of context here (including in the WCF IMHO)...

Get rid of all of those little Christmas ornaments that depict angels, also those cute little nativity scenes are a big no no!!!!


Merry Christmas.