The cross in the sky

Lulav · Apr 27, 2015

Not a very auspicious beginning to the Christian legal church. But it does give background on many of the doctrines and policies of the Church. It is also very similar to the religion of Islam in that you are to 'conquer' the world and make them all take on your religion.

That is not what Yeshua taught, nor is it what G-d wants. He does not want a people that are forced to believe and obey him. So conquering the world using Christianity is an oxymoron. But it continued, like in the Inquisition going against the very people that Yeshua came from. That right there should tell you how unholy this kind of religion really was founded upon.

Lulav · Apr 27, 2015

Here's the story

According to legend, Constantine I adopted this Greek phrase, "ἐν τούτῳ νίκα" (in this, win) as a motto after his vision of a chi rho in the sky just before the Battle of Milvian Bridge against Maxentius on 28 October 312. The early Christian symbol consists of a monogram composed of the Greek letters chi (X) and rho (P),

The historian Eusebius states that Constantine was marching with his army (Eusebius does not specify the actual location of the event, but it is clearly not in the camp at Rome), when he looked up to the sun and saw a cross of light above it, and with it the Greek words "ἐν τούτῳ νίκα" ("In this, conquer"), often rendered in Latin as In hoc signo vinces ("in this sign, you will conquer"). At first, Constantine did not know the meaning of the apparition, but on the following night, he had a dream in which Christ explained to him that he should use the sign of the cross against his enemies. Eusebius then continues to describe the Labarum, the military standard used by Constantine in his later wars against Licinius, showing the Chi-Rho sign.
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Apparitions, visions in the sun, dreams of Christ telling him to use the cross against his enemies.

Sounds familiar but I can't put my finger on it.

Oh and he sees an XP in the sky. Maybe this was a vision of 1700 years into the future of Bill Gates?

JeffTheLearner · Apr 27, 2015

Im thinking my comment describing the background of the "Chi Rho" got overlooked.

..Eusebius of Caesarea is one of my favorite Historians in Primitive Christianity BTW, I dont think his works are quoted enough

Lulav · Apr 27, 2015

JeffTheLearner said:
Im thinking my comment describing the background of the "Chi Rho" got overlooked.

..Eusebius of Caesarea is one of my favorite Historians in Primitive Christianity BTW, I dont think his works are quoted enough

Au contraire, I read it but I had already spoken about the Chi Rho in the OP

Elihoenai · Apr 27, 2015

Lulav said:
Not a very auspicious beginning to the Christian legal church. But it does give background on many of the doctrines and policies of the Church. It is also very similar to the religion of Islam in that you are to 'conquer' the world and make them all take on your religion.

Exodus 1:8-10 King James Version (KJV)

8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:

10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

Lulav said:
That is not what Yeshua taught, nor is it what G-d wants. He does not want a people that are forced to believe and obey him.

Amen!

Leviticus 1:2-3 King James Version (KJV)

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.

3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord.

Lulav said:
So conquering the world using Christianity is an oxymoron.

Luke 11:21-22 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

21 `When the strong man armed may keep his hall, in peace are his goods;

22 but when the stronger than he, having come upon [him], may overcome him, his whole-armour he doth take away in which he had trusted, and his spoils he distributeth;

John 16:33 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

33 these things I have spoken to you, that in me ye may have peace, in the world ye shall have tribulation, but take courage -- I have overcome the world.'

Lulav · Apr 27, 2015

Yes, he overcame, he did not overthrow or conquer.

Elihoenai · Apr 28, 2015

Lulav said:
Yes, he overcame, he did not overthrow or conquer.

3528. nikaó

Strong's Concordance

nikaó: to conquer, prevail
Original Word: νικάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nikaó
Phonetic Spelling: (nik-ah'-o)
Short Definition: I conquer, overcome
Definition: I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.

A Kingdom has a king that has conquered all enemies and thereby reigns supreme over his people.

Revelation 3:21 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

21 He who is overcoming -- I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.

Lulav · Apr 28, 2015

Right, but overcoming people and overcoming the world are two different things.

Yeshua never set out to conquer the people.

Elihoenai · Apr 30, 2015

Lulav said:
Right, but overcoming people and overcoming the world are two different things.

Yeshua never set out to conquer the people.

If the people are not conquered in the name of Yeshua than Yeshua does not exist.

Numbers 13:30-31 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

30 And Caleb stilleth the people concerning Moses, and saith, `Let us certainly go up -- and we have possessed it; for we are thoroughly able for it.'

31 And the men who have gone up with him said, `We are not able to go up against the people, for it [is] stronger than we;'

Luke 22:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

Lulav · Apr 30, 2015

Elihoenai said:
If the people are not conquered in the name of Yeshua than Yeshua does not exist.

:o What?

Noooo, Yeshua came to conquer death, not people.

Elihoenai said:
Numbers 13:30-31 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

30 And Caleb stilleth the people concerning Moses, and saith, `Let us certainly go up -- and we have possessed it; for we are thoroughly able for it.'
31 And the men who have gone up with him said, `We are not able to go up against the people, for it [is] stronger than we;'

Luke 22:2 King James Version (KJV) 2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

I don't know why you are quoting those passages for they are talking about people against other people. Yeshua is not a people.

Elihoenai · May 1, 2015

Elihoenai said:
If the people are not conquered in the name of Yeshua than Yeshua does not exist.

Lulav said:
:o What?

Noooo, Yeshua came to conquer death, not people.

Elihoenai said:
Numbers 13:30-31 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

30 And Caleb stilleth the people concerning Moses, and saith, `Let us certainly go up -- and we have possessed it; for we are thoroughly able for it.'

31 And the men who have gone up with him said, `We are not able to go up against the people, for it [is] stronger than we;'

Luke 22:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

Lulav said:
I don't know why you are quoting those passages for they are talking about people against other people. Yeshua is not a people.

It might be that meditation in the spirit is needed.

Psalm 92:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 O Lord, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.

1 Corinthians 2:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Hoshiyya · May 1, 2015

probably never happened.

Lulav · May 3, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
probably never happened.

What never happened? What did I miss?

Hoshiyya · May 4, 2015

Lulav said:
What never happened? What did I miss?

Referring to the cross vision in the sky mentioned in OP.

But if it did happen, chances are it may not have been from God.
The Catholics seem to have a few miracles happening in their history, like Fatima apparition and various Lady apparations, but I think they may not be from God. They don't seem particularly like "Biblical apparitions", they have a distinct Catholic style to them.

I once described Biblical cherubim (4 heads etc) to a Catholic and I guess he thought I was crazy or making things up, because he knew better. Cherubs are well-fed babies with tiny wings ! Like they had in Greek and Roman mythology.... curious !

ContraMundum · May 4, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Referring to the cross vision in the sky mentioned in OP.

But if it did happen, chances are it may not have been from God.
The Catholics seem to have a few miracles happening in their history, like Fatima apparition and various Lady apparations, but I think they may not be from God. They don't seem particularly like "Biblical apparitions", they have a distinct Catholic style to them.

Unless of course that's actually what God does and the Catholics are right......

...which I doubt.

Having said that, I believe Constantine may have seen a sign in the sky which he interpreted as a Cross/Chi Rho, and with a little ancient embellishment (common to all peoples back then) it became a little more of a story than it really was.

visionary · May 4, 2015

He liked the symbol so much, Constantine put in on all the shields of his soldiers.

Viren · May 4, 2015

Jesus said, "those that live by the sword die by the sword", yet help Constantine kill his foes. Something seems to be a miss.

visionary · May 5, 2015

May be this "live by sword die by sword" comes to those who may have survived the battles in the first go around but when they surround the City of God.. .. it is the final tragedy.

ContraMundum · May 5, 2015

Viren said:
Jesus said, "those that live by the sword die by the sword", yet help Constantine kill his foes. Something seems to be a miss.

Yeah, I agree. Even more confusing is the fact that the Torah has accounts with God commanding and assisting in warfare, executions and genocide.

Viren · May 5, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Yeah, I agree. Even more confusing is the fact that the Torah has accounts with God commanding and assisting in warfare, executions and genocide.

God definitely did something new with Jesus. I interpret most of the Old Testament spiritually and in light of the New.

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