Islam The Critical Stalemate re Violence in Islam

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Barney2.0

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I was replying to someone else, you came making nonsensical claims which were addressed by me and then you attempted to claim to have experience in Islamic studies, secondly you don’t seem to know how Islam spread or dealt with the Islamic sources at all, it seems your repeating Muslim apologist arguments over and over again and then exprecting people take your word for it. So yes I stil do doubt your credentials, thirdly even if they are true it still doesn’t give any credinility to your arguments at all.

You have yet to seperate Muslims from Islam the two are not the same, just as Christians aren’t Christianity. This view on Islam is the same one we learned at school here and is what many Muslims learn at school, thankfully though most Muslims are put their conscience and mind over their religious teachings. Even if many Muslims don’t follow or teach these principles doesn’t infact mean that Islam doesn’t teach it or that it isn’t thr correct interpretation based on the sources and how they were historically applied and interpretated. You keep repeating this fallacy over and over again. And the fact you mentioned these text after I made the claim Islamic sources support violence, means you did infact attack the Bible in a ditched effort to justify Islamic violence by attempting to portray them as being both the same thing while in reality their not.

No matter how many extremist Muslims there are, Islam does infact promote violence among other things, I for one don’t hate Muslims, my family is Muslim, I don’t hate Islam just because it’s Islam, also hate would be a strong word from me, the correct wording is that I particularly don’t view it as a faith nor do I have any respect for it overall. I know Islamic clerics to teach me Islamic history, I don’t need a Christian perspective of it, I can go straight to the source and that’s what I’d advise you to do, get advise from a Salafi Muslim cleric on Islam and then we’ll see if I misrepresented or misinterpreted anything inaccurately.
 
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JosephZ

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I care if Bill Warner is accurately presenting the spread of Islam or not, even going to Oxford confirms the spread of Islam through massive conquests:

Spread of Islam, The - Oxford Islamic Studies Online
These are the kind of sources you should be using. Everybody knows that there were conquests by Islamic empires.

You quoting his Bio must really backfire on you when it says he’s well read on Islam and an expert on its political ideology:

Dr. Bill Warner - Author, Speaker, and Teacher on the History of Political Islam
Of course Bill Warner is going to say that about himself on his own website, that still doesn't make him an expert on Islam or Islamic history. There's not a legitimate historian anywhere that would agree with his version of history.

You are free to believe what you want brother, but all you are doing is legitimizing the teachings of extremist and bearing false witness against the vast majority of Muslims in the world. I see from your past postings that there have been plenty of Muslims who have refuted all of your claims and based on your responses to them I doubt there is anything I could counter with that will make you change your position on this subject. My advice to you is to take the time to educate yourself on Islam and world history by taking some courses from legitimate sources. You are only 18 years old, so you have much to learn yet. I wish you well and I will be praying for you.
 
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Barney2.0

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Only as I explained that the conquests never stopped, were done advocated by people Muslims deem to be good and perfect moral examples, not only were the conquests never stopped, but they were the most rapid and fast conquests done in the name of religion then any other one that ever took place in human history.

You quoted Bill Warner’s Bio to prove he had no field in Islam, when it infact says he does, which is inconsistency on your part.

Again your still not even understanding the premise of the argument I’m making which is that Islam is violent, can you quote me one post where I said the majority of Muslims are violent people or hold violent views? Which Muslims refuted my claims here, given that there are not many Muslim members in the forums? Since your not addressing or properly responding to any of my claims who is it that needs to be educated?
 
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JosephZ

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I have taken courses offered by a Salafi cleric.

Look at the name on the bottom left of these certificates.



The founder of this school and the professor of those courses is Dr. Bilal Philips, a Sunni Salafi fundamentalist. He was even arrested here in Davao City and banned from returning to the Philippines because of his suspected ties to extremists.

DAVAO CITY: Police and immigration agents on Sunday arrested in this city Canadian Muslim scholar and professor Dr. Abu Ameen Bilal Philips, whom authorities suspect has ties with some Muslim radical extremist groups. Philips, who has been banned from entering the United States and the United Kingdom, was conducting a lecture in a predominantly Muslim village when he was invited for questioning and subsequently held in custody by authorities.

Since countering violent extremism is incorporated into our ministry here, the above is the reason why I enrolled in his courses so that I could have a better understanding of what he teaches since he is popular among many of the Muslims in the communities we work in.

Dr. Philips received his B.A. degree from the Islamic University of Medina and his M.A. in Islamic Theology from the King Saud University in Riyadh, completed his PhD at the University of Wales, St. David's University College. He taught Islamic studies for a decade at an Islamic high school in Riyadh and was an Arabic and Islamic studies teacher in the American University of Dubai for 10 years.

All of the lectures from those courses were given by Dr. Philips, and even he doesn't teach what you are saying on this forum.
 
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JosephZ

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You quoted Bill Warner’s Bio to prove he had no field in Islam, when it infact says he does, which is inconsistency on your part.
He is a self proclaimed expert in Islam. Can you find any outside source that shows evidence that he is or where he has any formal education in the subjects of Islam, Islamic history, or even history in general?

Which Muslims refuted my claims here, given that there are not many Muslim members in the forums?
This isn't the only forum you post on, but even here the few Muslims that are here have refuted your claims. On the Muslim forum you post on, every Muslim has refuted your claims. Doesn't that tell you something? Why don't you listen to what they have to tell you about the religion they were born into and have practiced their entire lives? Instead you choose to believe the extremist narrative and that of notorious anti-Islamic propagandists. Why is that?

Since your not addressing or properly responding to any of my claims who is it that needs to be educated?
I have already went through all of this with the OP on multiple threads over the past few weeks. You are free to read those. Nothing you have said in this thread is any different that what the OP has presented so far and since you are both using the exact same sources, I doubt you will have anything new to bring to the table.
 
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JosephZ

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Muhammed Al Munnajid is an Islamic extremist, that’s the dumbest and most nonsensical thing you’ve posted here so far, in Saudi he’s a well respected Islamic scholar and Sheikh of high standing,
Of course he is respected there, remember what I showed you about the country you are living in another thread?

How can you say Muhammed Al Munnajid isn't an Islamic extremist when he promotes the teachings below?:

Women who drive are prostitutes, women being "weak, defeated and dazzled" if they take part in politics, women being intellectually inferior to men, women who work as broadcasters will lead to illegitimate children, needing to divorce women who don't wear the hijab, needing to leave work if there are women working there too, polygamy being necessary for all Muslim males, women who do not marry will become prostitutes and the illegitimacy of the children will be reflected in their behavior, a muslim male being sinful for getting to know a girl for the sake of marriage, being sinful to live in non-Muslim countries (and needing to hate non-muslims if one does live in a non-muslim country), and not being allowed to appreciate the skills of non-muslim football players, because they are non-muslim.

This view on Islam is the same one we learned at school here and is what many Muslims learn at school, thankfully though most Muslims are put their conscience and mind over their religious teachings.
Wahhabi Islam is at the heart of Saudi Arabia's political ideology and at the core of its educational curriculum, so that should not be surprising. What you were being taught in school was a strict Wahhabi form of Sunni Islam, not the religion of Islam that almost all Muslims outside of the Arabian peninsula follow. You're only 18 so your level of knowledge on this subject is narrow and very limited especially having spent most of your life in a country like Saudi Arabia and being educated under their system. As you get older you will be able to better differentiate between extremism and the religion of Islam especially if you do some traveling and start interacting with Muslims from different cultures.
 
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Joyousperson

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Your cheap shots again and again.

Note, it is very common for one group to condemn the other opposing parties regardless of the truths. This is the same in courts between two opposing parties, where it is up to the jury or judge to decide based on evidences and arguments provided.

But what counts is objectivity of the truths. In this case is reliance on the original authority of Islam, i.e. the Quran from Allah supported by Ahadith.

Your condemnation of the above critiques of Islam i.e. Ali Sina, Bill Warner, David Wood, Robert Spencer and others is reflecting your lack of IQ and intellectual honesty.

You need to substantiate your accusations. Show me where the above critiques are wrong [to a significant degree] in their references to the original sources.

Re Ali Sina, I don't agree with his blanket condemnation of 'Muslims' without separating Muslims from the ideology of Islam. In most cases, Ali Sina had quoted from the Quran and Ahadith directly, so what is wrong with that?

I believe why most critiques of Islam made reference to the above mentioned sites is due to convenience of time factor, since it save one [me] the extra searching, compilations and typing.

In any case, any one can still critique their references if they are wrong.
However you came out like a wild animal and tear them to pieces from very bias sources. I wonder you are really a real Christian following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
 
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Joyousperson

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Your cheap shots again and using the ad hominen fallacy.
Why don't you insist Einstein, Copernicus and likes were wrong because there were so many who had opposed their theories.

You are now directly discussing with Al Masihi, all you have to do is to prove he is wrong with evidence and arguments in those points you disagree.

So far, you have not engaged much with him on the critical matters in terms of Islamic doctrines and principles.

Rather what you have been doing is attacking the superficial elements of the person and other persons.
 
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Joyousperson

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Note this re Bilal Philips ;

Stockholm bomber's mosque website carries links to extremist preacher
Luton Islamic Centre site's links to speeches by Bilal Philips, who was barred from Britain by home secretary in July for his views

The website of the British mosque where the Stockholm bomber worshipped carries links to comments used to justify suicide attacks, and material expounding antisemitism and homophobia.

Preachers at the Luton Islamic Centre told last week how they had tackled Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly, 28, the suicide bomber who blew himself up in Stockholm last weekend, over his extremist views.

However, the centre's website carries a link to a lecture by Dr Bilal Philips, a Muslim preacher who was barred from entering Britain by the home secretary in July because of his extremist views.

Stockholm bomber's mosque website carries links to extremist preacher
Note what is at stake here is salvation, i.e. either paradise with eternal life or eternal death in Hell. You need to have a good grasp of the desperate psychology involved in relation to an existential crisis in this case.

Now that Bilal Philips within the public microscope he has no choice to make attempts to cover his 'leopard spots' which he is doing. From the overall contexts of the ideology of Islam, Muslims are permitted to pretend for the greater 'good' of the religion.

Note his views from same article;

Philips added that the suicide bomber had made a military decision based on the defences of the enemy. He says: "The [enemy] is either too heavily armed, or they don't have the type of equipment that can deal with it, so the only other option they have is to try to get some people amongst them and then explode the charges that they have to try to destroy the equipment and to save the lives of their comrades.

"So this is not really considered to be suicide in the true sense. This is a military action and human lives are sacrificed in that military action. This is really the bottom line for it and that's how we should look at it."
Bilal Philips at present has to go along with public expectations so he is pretending to behave like he is a moderate but that is only on the surface. There is no way he will go against his God's words as in the Quran and Ahadith.
With salvation at stake, he is not likely and will not be able to change his 'leopard spots.'

I believe you have been brainwashed [zombified] by Bilal Philips when you enrolled in his course and you are now doing his biddings which is so obvious and glaring in your posts.
 
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JosephZ

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Your condemnation of the above critiques of Islam i.e. Ali Sina, Bill Warner, David Wood, Robert Spencer and others is reflecting your lack of IQ and intellectual honesty.
You need to substantiate your accusations. Show me where the above critiques are wrong [to a significant degree] in their references to the original sources.
Here is 100% proof that you, Bill Warner, David Wood, Robert Spencer, ISIS, and all the rest of the Anti-Islamic propagandists and Islamic extremist out there are wrong.

They are wrong because they do not differentiate between the religion of Islam and extremism. What you and the anti-Islamic propagandist are criticizing is not the religion of Islam that almost every Muslim in the world follows; what you and the anti-Islamic propagandist are criticizing is an extremist sect of Islam that is rejected by the vast majority of Muslims in the world. It's not the religion of Islam that Islamic terrorist follow, its an extremist interpretation of Islam.

Below are some excerpts from a Report from the Center for Religious Freedom. As you read these excerpts you will notice that it describes the type of teaching that you are criticizing to the letter.

All Saudis must be Muslim, and the Saudi government, in collaboration with the country’s religious establishment, enforces and imposes Wahhabism as the official state doctrine.

The Wahhabism that the Saudi monarchy enforces, and on which it bases its legitimacy, is shown in these documents as a fanatically bigoted, xenophobic and sometimes violent ideology. These publications articulate its wrathful dogma, rejecting the coexistence of different religions and explicitly condemning Christians, Jews, all other non-Muslims, as well as non-Wahhabi Muslims. The various Saudi publications gathered for this study state that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping such “infidels” in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations. They instill contempt for America because the United States is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian
Wahhabi-style Islamic law.


Wahhabism began only 250 years ago with the movement created by fanatical preacher Muhammad Ibn Abd alWahhab. Once a fringe sect in a remote part of the Arabian peninsula, Wahhabi extremism has been given global reach through Saudi government sponsorship and money, particularly over the past quarter century as it has competed with Iran in spreading its version of the faith. With its vast oil wealth and its position as guardian of Islam’s two holiest sites, Saudi Arabia now claims to be the leading power within Islam and the protector of the faith, a belief stated in the Saudi Basic Law. Saudi Foreign Policy Adviser Adel al-Jubeir publicly states that “the role of Saudi Arabia in the Muslim world is similar to the role of the Vatican.” Even as the Saudi state asserts that it strives to keep the faith “pure” and free of innovation, it invents a new role for itself as the only legitimate authority on Islam.

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Wahhabism and other hardline or salafist (literally translated as venerable predecessors) movements are a distinct minority.

Saudi state curriculum for many years has taught children to hate “the other” and support jihad, a malleable term that is used by terrorists to describe and justify their atrocities... Recent converts with limited experience of Islam can be particularly susceptible to the Saudi publications’ toxic message... The spread of Islamic extremism, such as Wahhabism, is the most serious ideological challenge of our times. Wahhabi extremism is more than hate speech; it is a totalitarian ideology of
hatred that can incite to violence.


Religion is the foundation of the Saudi state’s political ideology, and religion is an important part of Saudi education. Saudi Arabia defines itself as an Islamic state, and has established Wahhabism as the official state doctrine. Saudi Wahhabism is an extreme interpretation of Islam based on a dualistic worldview in which the true “monotheists” are obliged until judgment day to “fight” “polytheists,” and “idolators,” including Christians, Jews, Shiites and insufficiently devout Sunni Muslims.

Adherents of Wahhabism constitute a small minority within world Islam [Fewer than 5%], yet, Saudi Arabia is trying to assert itself as the world’s authoritative voice on Islam. Its conquest of the Hejaz in 1924 gave it control of Islam’s two holiest sites and the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca that is one of the five pillars of Islam. This role, along with its vast oil wealth, has been used by Saudi Arabia to lay claim to being the leading power within all of Islam and the protector of the faith, a claim emphasized in the Saudi Basic Law.

Saudi state textbooks propound a belief that Christians and Jews and other unbelievers have united in a war against Islam that will ultimately end in the complete destruction of such infidels. Like the statements of Osama bin Laden, they advance the belief that the Crusades never ended and continue today in various forms.

Some of the most disturbing examples include the following (See Appendix A for text excerpts.) Regarding Sunni, Shiite, Sufi and other non-Wahhabi or non-Salafi Muslims, the textbooks:

• Denounce Muslims who do not interpret the Qur’an literally.
• Muslims to hate Christians, Jews, polytheists and other unbelievers.
Christians are considered infidels who must be fought unless they have a protection contract with Muslims
• Jews and the Christian are enemies of the Muslim believers and the clash between the two realms continues until the Day of Resurrection.
• The spread of Islam through jihad is a religious obligation.
• The struggle between Muslims and Jews will continue until the hour of judgment and that Muslims will triumph because they are right and he who is right is always victorious.
• Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot be loyal to those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives.
• It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam.
• A Muslim, even if he lives far away, is your brother in religion. Someone who opposes God, even if he is your brother by family tie, is your enemy.

https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/inline_images/Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques.pdf
https://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/Tier1_SAUDI ARABIA.pdf

Since the above perfectly describes what what you have been posting here on this forum, then this tells you that what you are talking about is Wahhabism and it's teachings rather than the religion of Islam. This perverted sect of Islam is also what the anti-Islamic propagandists like Bill Warner, David Wood, Robert Spencer and the others are trying to convince their followers of as being the religion of Islam. Dr. Bale, one of your sources from another thread, has described these individuals perfectly: ‘Islam bashing’ nowadays normally takes the form of conflating Islam, one of the world’s most historically important and influential religions, with Islamism [Extremism]... or, to be more precise, ‘Islam bashers’ tend to attribute all of the regressive, bellicose and other undeniably negative characteristics associated with Islamism and its jihadist components to Islam in general... What the ‘Islam bashers’ fail to acknowledge is that these particular interpretations are by no means the only possible interpretations of core Islamic doctrines, traditions and values, much less the most authentic, valid or widely shared interpretations... they are clearly not disinterested or neutral observers.

Re Ali Sina, I don't agree with his blanket condemnation of 'Muslims' without separating Muslims from the ideology of Islam. In most cases, Ali Sina had quoted from the Quran and Ahadith directly, so what is wrong with that?
What Ali Sina is doing is following a strict and literal interpretation of the Qur'an and not putting it into historical and textual context. What he and other extremist teachers are doing is ignoring the fact that the Muslims that were being spoken to in the Qur'an lived in a different culture, at a different point in time, and were facing unique situations. As I have mentioned before, the verses in the Qur'an address specific audiences, during a specific point in time, and under specific circumstances. It can be read as if every single verse is addressed to a Muslim living in 2019.

Below is an example of what kind of teaching will result if you follow a strict and literal interpretation of the Bible.


This sect of Christianity believes in the death penalty for things like Homosexuality and Adultery among other sins and they want to see it carried out in every case without exception. They believe that only those who belong to their church are Christians, all other denominations are heretics and damned to hell. Here is an example from a missionaries bio from this sect that shows this: Previously, Richard had met Jenefer, and gave her the gospel. She was a Pentecostal, but eventually got saved and left the Pentecostal church, got baptized and into a Baptist church. They also teach that being friends with people outside of their church is forbidden, women are to be submissive to their husbands under all circumstances, and women are not allowed to speak a single word within the church.

Now if you interpret the Bible literally and without putting things into textual and historical context, you can come to the conclusions like in the examples above. If you watch a complete sermon from one of these churches they read scripture straight from the Bible and it sounds like this is exactly what the Bible teaches. If one of these churches was the first one that a non-Christian with little understanding of the Christian faith walked into, they would easily be convinced that what the pastor preaching from the pulpit is teaching true Christianity.

The above concept also works in relation to Islam. An Islamic extremists can easily convince a naive recruit with little or no understanding of the religion of Islam that what they are teaching is true Islam. This same principle also comes into play with anti-Islamic propagandist like David Wood and Bill Warner who are exploiting the west's ignorance of Islam.

you came out like a wild animal and tear them to pieces from very bias sources. I wonder you are really a real Christian following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I'm not one to make allegations against others without merit. Had I never read a single article or report from an outside source about David Wood, Bill Warner, etc; based on my personal knowledge of Islam and more than three decades of interacting with Muslims in different parts of the world I know for certain that what they are saying is in error. I have tried to show where they are in error in my discussion with you, but it's up to you which side you choose to believe.
 
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JosephZ

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I have engaged him in other threads, and what he had added to this one has already been discussed not only in those, but also the ones that you and I have participated in over the past few weeks. I see no point in rehashing the same arguments over and over if it's already been covered elsewhere. In fact, I'm surprised that I have allowed myself to get so caught up in these debates.

Rather what you have been doing is attacking the superficial elements of the person and other persons.
Al Masihi is an 18 year old who has spent most of his life in Saudi Arabia. He was educated in the Saudi education system which has mandatory religious instruction which teaches from an extremist point of view as I have already shown. Not only was he taught this extremist brand of Islam, it's also found outside the classroom on the TV and radio programming in that country. If this is the environment he was brought up in, naturally he is going to think that what he has learned and experienced in Saudi Arabia is true Islam. For now at least due to his young age and being indoctrinated under the Saudi regime, he can't be blamed for having the point of view that he has. I'm sure as he gets older and has some more real world experience under his belt he will become more enlightened on this subject.
 
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JosephZ

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Note what is at stake here is salvation, i.e. either paradise with eternal life or eternal death in Hell. You need to have a good grasp of the desperate psychology involved in relation to an existential crisis in this case.
There is no support for your claim that earning salvation is what motivates suicide terrorists.

Instead of religion, what over 95 percent of all suicide terrorist attacks since 1980, all around the world have in common is a specific strategic goal, to compel modern democracies to withdraw combat forces from territory the terrorists prize greatly.

What we've seen is that some of these terrorist organizations have become very innovative in digging deep in Islamic histories to find traditions, perhaps archaic traditions, to justify the killing of civilians, to justify Muslims killing Muslims, and to justify killing yourself, as an Islamic, you're strictly prohibited from suicide.

The Motivations of Suicide Bombers

The evidence from the database largely discredits the common wisdom that the personality of suicide bombers and their religion are the principal cause. It shows that though religion can play a vital role in recruiting and motivating potential future suicide bombers, the driving force is not religion but a cocktail of motivations including politics, humiliation, revenge, retaliation and altruism.
What Motivates the Suicide Bombers? | YaleGlobal Online

Eli Berman, Radical, Religious, and Violent 9-13, 212 (2009) (relying upon Israeli study of Muslim suicide bombers, among other evidence, to demonstrate that“religious terrorists, even suicide bombers [are] not particularly motivated by heavenly rewards”)

Study after study have come to the same conclusions.

Philips at present has to go along with public expectations so he is pretending to behave like he is a moderate but that is only on the surface. There is no way he will go against his God's words as in the Quran and Ahadith.
That quote from Bilal Philips is from 2006. The video below should start around the 15:50 mark where he starts leading up to where he is talking about suicide bombing which comes about a minute later. You may have to adjust it a bit because for some reason it starts at a different point each time I click on it. It may just be a problem on my end though.


The material from the course I took in contemporary issues dates back to 2002, so his position on suicide bombing seems to be consistent.

I believe you have been brainwashed [zombified] by Bilal Philips when you enrolled in his course and you are now doing his biddings which is so obvious and glaring in your posts.
The very first course I took in Islamic Studies in 1986 was offered by the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. The online course that I have recommended to you is also offered from a Christian source.
I have taken courses from Christian, Islamic, and secular schools of thought over the past three decades and they all teach pretty much the same thing about Islam. So your assertion that I have been brainwashed and that I'm doing the biddings for Bilal Philips is misguided. I would never intentionally deceive or mislead anyone.
 
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Barney2.0

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Then ideology of Bilal Philips and his brand of Islam are closer to Muslim brotherhood or Hizb Al Tahrir, then actual Salafism even actual Salafis called him out for that:


Bilal Philips the Deceitful Defender of Ahlul-Bid'ah - Abu Khadeejah : أبو خديجة
 
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JosephZ

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Then ideology of Bilal Philips and his brand of Islam are closer to Muslim brotherhood or Hizb Al Tahrir, then actual Salafism even actual Salafis called him out for that:
Even within Salafism there is not 100% agreement so that's no surprise; regardless of that, you have been indoctrinated into a sect of Islam that has been rejected by greater than 90% of the world's Muslims today and has been historically. I think you will find once you expand your horizons beyond Saudi Arabia that your interpretation of Islam differs greatly than that of nearly every Muslim you will encounter outside of the Arabian Peninsula.
 
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Barney2.0

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You said he doesn’t have any expertise’s on Islam based on his bio I refuted you using his bio, what part of what I’m saying don’t you understand.

Keep in mind there aren’t many Muslim forums online, I only had an account on three of them, Islamicity where i barely participated on due to it being inactive, Gawaher forums which I practically never participate on due to it being inactive most of the time, and Shia Chat which I got banned on last year because the mods gave me four warning point although two warning points were committed out of simple misunderstandings that I made that the mods immediately judged as an offense as warning points despite not explaining or warning me first. Which forum was it on and who were the Muslims refuting me? As for why I don’t listen to Muslims, many Muslims told me that apostasy has a death penalty and anyone who leaves Islam deserves to be killed, a couple told me that on Shia Chat many have told me that face to face. Now as for why I don’t generally listen to Muslim apologists or people who do apologetics for them such as yourself, when it comes to Muslims I haven’t seen bigger attempts to lie about your own history except when it comes to Muslim apologists.

I brought you numerous arguments which you refuse to address, how is Islam a good religion when it’s moral examples are considered completely perfect and are meant to be emulates in every way of life despite being murderers who conquered and spread Islam at sword point, are people like Mohammed are the Sahaba good perfect moral examples to you, if not then you should know that Islam considers them as such, and if you think they were absolutely perfect moral people then I rest my case. Answer this question if your actually sincere.
 
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Barney2.0

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There’s no agreement within Islam of anything, I don’t care how many Muslims reject it, as I said Islam is not Muslims, what part of that don’t you get. The sources of Islam are still available for viewing, some Muslims follow them to the letter and some don’t. Historically Mohammed and the origins, Sahaba would look like modern day Salafis, actually even worse. I don’t care about interpretations of Islam. In Salafism and Orthodox Sunnis Islam it’s Allah said and Mohammed said that’s the basis for interpretation among them, nothing else so why should I squander that to listen the nonsense your spewing.
 
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Barney2.0

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Quote me Muhammed Al Munajjids website where he mentions the following, because when he gives fatwas on ridiculous stuff such as the above he usually quoted Quran, Hadith, or historical Islamic scholars to back his position. There’s no such thing as Wahhabi Islam, it’s Called Salafism not Wahhabism. If Bilal Philips really taught you anything, he definitely never used that term. My age has nothing to do with it, we go by facts and source here not our personal lives as a weight for our arguments. Again read what I’m saying, Islam and Muslims aren’t the same thing, the sources and what Muslims choose to follow are two seperate issues which you don’t seem to get, I don’t care how many Muslims reject Orthodox Islamic interpretations of their religion or how many are liberal. i care about what the sources state and how they’ve been historically interpreted nothing else either argue with me on that basis or stop replying to me.
 
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JosephZ

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There’s no such thing as Wahhabi Islam, it’s Called Salafism not Wahhabism.
I have already responded to you when you made this claim in another thread.
The only people who claim that Wahhabism doesn't exist are Wahabbists because they see it as an insult. Saying it doesn't exist when the entire Islamic world outside of the Wahhabist sect says it does is a bit silly don't you think? Also, the term is used by world governments and in schools where religious history and subjects relating to extremism are taught.
 
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Barney2.0

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You can’t respond to that because Salafism is based on the teachings of pre Orthodox Islam not Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahhab’s private interpretations of Islam. The term isn’t used by actual Salafis also, to call Salafis Wahhabi would be to call Ibn Taymiyyah a Wahhabi Which is stupid, I don’t care how many Muslims use the term Wahhabi, many Muslims call Christians Nasrani or Nazarene, it’s also used by Islamic governments, but it doesn't make it any less accurate.
 
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Not all Salafis are Wahhabistst.

Wahhabism is a modern concept as you pointed out and is only a sect of Islam that is found within the Salafi movement. This is the sect of Islam that you have been indoctrinated into believing is true Islam having lived in Saudi Arabia for most of your life and what is being described in this thread and others like it by those who have gotten there education of Islam from extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists. Even within the Salafi movement Wahabbism is widely rejected.
 
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