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If you're going by the law, the basis of fruit is how you treat those who are least of all.Do you think that God gave the Israelites instructions for how to bear fruit
Paul said that if righteousness can come by the law, then Christ died in vain.It is good to have the self-awareness to recognize when we have interpreted a verse as saying something completely absurd and to conclude that we must have misunderstood it rather than to promote an absurdity as truth.
Where is it written exactly as you have said?God's word reveals that those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to His law are not born again
I probably view your theology the same way. Not a problem.your completely absurd misunderstanding
The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God.The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, so relying on it is the way to rely on the Spirit. Do you think that God gave the Israelites instructions for how to determine whether something is wicked, or do you think that they had no idea how to do that?
In Matthew 5:28, Jesus taught something that was more difficult than the law, it says that our intent to lust counts as the action of lust. This this not taught in the law, it is alluded to in Job.In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so for you to suggest that Jesus did that is to say that he sinned and therefore to deny that he is our Savior. However, even if Jesus could have taught teachings that were more difficult than the Law of Moses in disagreement with the Father without disqualifying himself as our Savior, then at the very least you should agree that we should obey it plus whatever else that he taught to make it more difficult.
Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant (Lk 20:22, 1 Co 11:25), and then commissioned his apostles to make disciples of all nations (Mt 28:19).Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
God isn't making a covenant with the world, He is only making the covenant with the House of Israel/the Twelve Tribes. If the world does not change citizenship to become part of Israel, they will not be given the Holy Spirit. Also when Christ returns, he's not coming to save the world, He is returning to save Israel--and Israel only.
Jeremiah 16:14-15 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.'
Matthew 24:22; Ezekiel 37:16-24
The Exodus and End Times are book ends. The entire Bible is Israel-centric; it only ever has to do with Israel and nations that come in contact with Israel. But just like during the Exodus, a great mixed multitude came out with Israel.
How does this set with people who are against the Hebrew Roots movements, or those from the past who accused Christians of Judaizing and persecuted them for it? If you're not Israel, you won't be rescued. You don't have to be blood Israel anymore, but how does one know your citizenship, except by your culture and behavior? You can't continue in man-made traditions and the culture of the world if you're an Israelite by birth or adoption. If the world doesn't recognize you as an Israelite, a Spiritual Jew, or a "Judaizer", as some mock, then it's unlikely God does as well.
Sounds like humans saying who is of God and who is not instead of God.The word, the law through the spirit through Christ is kept. It is of Christ. Those that do are. Those who do not are not.
They shall be know by their fruits. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Make us perfect in every good work to do his will, working in us that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. For God has said I will put my laws in our hearts and write them in our minds. So say not in your heart who shall bring it down from above or up from the deep. But say the word is nigh unto thee. In thy mouth and in thy heart that you do it. That is the word of faith in which we preach.Sounds like humans saying who is of God and who is not instead of God.
Since God is the only one who can be certain of that, I disagree with the premise of this theology.
If it's written in our hearts, then it's a different kind of "law" than in a book.They shall be know by their fruits. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Make us perfect in every good work to do his will, working in us that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. For God has said I will put my laws in our hearts and write them in our minds. So say not in your heart who shall bring it down from above or up from the deep. But say the word is nigh unto thee. In thy mouth and in thy heart that you do it. That is the word of faith in which we preach.
If it's written in our hearts, then it's a different kind of "law" than in a book.
You might want to reread chapter 1 and 2 again. It is not likely that you are understanding it correctly considering this statement of yours.James speaks of this law of liberty, and it's far different than the Mosaic one,
What do you think the law of sin is?the antithesis of non-penned law is the law of sin within the body of Romans 7.
Exactly.Only those in whom it is written, will understand it.
The law of liberty speaks about treating others as Jesus has treated you. If you fail to do so, you then get judged without mercy i.e. by the mosaic law.Depends on whether we are sinning or not
You might want to reread chapter 1 and 2 again. It is not likely that you are understanding it correctly considering this statement of yours.
What do you think the law of sin is?
Exactly.
And yet if we're not behaving as God's children should we're probably not born again after all.Since we know it is written that sin is magnified by the law, why preach repression as a remedy? It's like the source of this teaching doesn't want others to succeed or something.
To be a citizen of the Kingdom of God, one must be born again by the Holy Spirit. Being born again makes us part of the same bloodline as Jesus Christ. This reminds me of in the Garden when the snake said to the humans who were already "like God" that they could be "like God" if they ate the forbidden fruit. This "extra" beyond what God does for us is being presented like a forbidden fruit. So no thanks to said teaching.
So are you now agreeing that God's law is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him by teaching us how to treat those who are lest of all? How good or bad of a job that the Israelites followed God's law doesn't change that it is God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him.If you're going by the law, the basis of fruit is how you treat those who are least of all.
This is because you are acting benevolent for no selfish reason.
The Israelites however, are not a good comparison since they were not born again.
I completely agree that we do not earn our righteousness as the result of obeying God's law and I have never suggested otherwise because that was never one of the reasons for why we should obey it, so that is not contrary to my position.Paul said that if righteousness can come by the law, then Christ died in vain.
Perhaps this may hint at some absurdities in your theologies expressed.
Where is it written exactly as you have said?
You are free to think that, but if you are unable to explain how your position is not absurd, then the problem remains with your position. You are more that welcome to explain what it is that is innate to a command not to sin that magnifies sin instead of leading us away from sin or to explain why it is not absurd to think that Paul delighted in causing sin to increase.I probably view your theology the same way. Not a problem.
Why do you say that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God, but stop short of saying that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey what God has instructed?The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God.
The Israelites are a light to the nations either by being an example of what we should do when they obeyed God's law or by being an example of what we should avoid doing when they disobeyed God's law, and we should learn from their example of disobedience what we should avoid doing (1 Corinthians 10:1-13). So regardless of the extent to which the Israelites did what is righteous or wicked, we should still have faith for God to correctly divide between the two through His law in accordance with the leading of the Spirit.Using Israelites as a comparison illustrates that the instructions expressed in your post are not for people born again by the Holy Spirit.
If what you said it correct, then you are arguing that Jesus sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 and is therefore not our Savior. However, if we correctly understand what is being commanded against by the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and coveting in our hearts, then we will not lust after a woman in our hearts, so Jesus was just teaching how to correctly obey those commands as it was originally intended, not adding to or subtracting from the law.In Matthew 5:28, Jesus taught something that was more difficult than the law, it says that our intent to lust counts as the action of lust. This this not taught in the law, it is alluded to in Job.
What the law teaches on it is easier.
Jesus also taught, no divorce, and that the commandment to divorce was given because the hearts of the people were hardened.
Why then was he not stoned for blasphemy and for adding to God's teachings?
At the same time, there's people who were born into Christian Families, really trying hard ... but didn't get born again. Best to leave this expertise up to God.And yet if we're not behaving as God's children should we're probably not born again after all.
No. It's not about a written code, it's about maturing spiritually and participating in the divine nature. This divine nature was given to us on second birth.So are you now agreeing that God's law is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him by teaching us how to treat those who are lest of all?
Do you affirm or deny that God gave the Israelites instructions for how to participate in the divine nature? For example, if someone obeys the command to love their neighbor as themselves through faith in God, would you affirm or deny that they are bearing fruit for God and that they are participating in the divine nature? God's law is spiriteual (Romans 7:14), while works of the flesh are contrary to it. For example, in Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspect of the divine nature that are in accordance with itNo. It's not about a written code, it's about maturing spiritually and participating in the divine nature. This divine nature was given to us on second birth.
Until we mature to a certain point, many of the instructions we require are not available, because we cannot receive these things from God.
When a code is written down, it is something that the flesh can use to control the situation.
I'm not interested in sowing to the flesh.
The rest of your long response to my responses is full of misconceptions, so I will not address the strawman.
Oh, I'm not saying I can judge who's of God and who's not-but good fruit is pretty necessary as evidence, while all different for each person most likely, depending on individual circumstances.At the same time, there's people who were born into Christian Families, really trying hard ... but didn't get born again. Best to leave this expertise up to God.
I agree with the concept of Good fruit in the context most Catholic teaching says you need to express Christian love.Oh, I'm not saying I can judge who's of God and who's not-but good fruit is pretty necessary as evidence, while all different for each person most likely, depending on individual circumstances.
I disagree with the premise of your question, thus will not provide any answer to it. There are two covenants, and two sets of providence from God. The requirements of those participating in the second covenant, cannot be reached by using the providence from the first.Do you affirm or deny that God gave the Israelites instructions for how to participate in the divine nature? For example, if someone obeys the command to love their neighbor as themselves through faith in God, would you affirm or deny that they are bearing fruit for God and that they are participating in the divine nature? God's law is spiriteual (Romans 7:14), while works of the flesh are contrary to it. For example, in Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspect of the divine nature that are in accordance with it
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