The Confederate Flag

KitKatMatt said:

If a Dukes of Hazzard fan flies the flag in their front yard (is that common anywhere else? It is here. People get flagpoles solely for this purpose) without knowing of the historical connotations of publicly flying that flag, then they're pretty clueless.

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I already agreed anyone flying it should be aware of the baggage and prepared to explain themselves. But if someone flies it for precisely that reason (I don't fly one, but own several, for, I contend, this exact reason) and they tell you that reason, and generally present themselves as being supportive of racial equality and justice at law, is it a racist symbol?

It's still a racist symbol, no matter how it was used in a TV show.

Does it mean anyone who owns this flag is racist? No. Many people can have historical memorabilia as collectibles (from history or even TV shows). I have to say though, the connotation from flying the flag is too much for me to dismiss (also it's worth mentioning that those people I was talking about that I know with these flags, fly them). To fly a flag is to declare something.

If someone is a Dukes fan and flies the flag because they're a fan, all the power to them. But all I see is a racist symbol, not a symbol of a fandom.

KitKatMatt said:

It's still a racist symbol, no matter how it was used in a TV show.

Does it mean anyone who owns this flag is racist? No. Many people can have historical memorabilia as collectibles (from history or even TV shows). I have to say though, the connotation from flying the flag is too much for me to dismiss (also it's worth mentioning that those people I was talking about that I know with these flags, fly them). To fly a flag is to declare something.

If someone is a Dukes fan and flies the flag because they're a fan, all the power to them. But all I see is a racist symbol, not a symbol of a fandom.

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Even after having explained myself? I think it's a cool flag, and I think the martial accomplishments of the CSA military are laudable, even if the ideals they were fighting for were not. Ditto NAZIs, actually.

I ask you, honestly, do I come of as a racist? Does my justification seem particularly ad hoc?

From what I know of you, you don't seem like a racist at all. Even if I don't agree with your justification.

I don't know you very deeply, but that's my impression right now.

KitKatMatt said:

From what I know of you, you don't seem like a racist at all. Even if I don't agree with your justification.

I don't know you very deeply, but that's my impression right now.

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Well, thanks.

So, I just offer this as food for thought, if I, who doesn't seem like a racist, offers an explanation for why I own a symbol, is that symbol necessarily racist?

Let me assure you I do understand that many who do use it, use it explicitly as a racist symbol, I'm merely pointing out that not everyone who uses it is. Get offended by racists, not the symbol.

That's all. Just think on it. Don't need a reply.

I'm not offended by the symbol, I just consider it racist.

From the people I know and my own experiences though, I'd say anyone who flies or displays the confederate flag outside for reasons unrelated to racist ideals would be in the minority. That is from my own experience, however, and I don't claim it as truth (my replies to this post have all been based on the way I see this flag, and my own experiences involving it).

KitKatMatt said:

I'm not offended by the symbol, I just consider it racist.

From the people I know and my own experiences though, I'd say anyone who flies or displays the confederate flag outside for reasons unrelated to racist ideals would be in the minority. That is from my own experience, however, and I don't claim it as truth (my replies to this post have all been based on the way I see this flag, and my own experiences involving it).

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Consider the racists racist, not the symbol, if you prefer.

But if a symbol is commonly used to promote racism then it becomes a racist symbol. Take the Swastika, it is a symbol of luck in Hinduism, as well as being a Buddhist symbol. But if someone gets a swastika tattoo and walks around the US, they will be wearing a racist symbol.

LOVEthroughINTELLECT said:

The flag of the United States of America symbolizes a country that committed the genocide of Native Americans, but nobody is saying that it is wrong to fly the U.S. flag.

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The US government wasn't established for the purpose of committing genocide, but to secure liberty and justice for all, however imperfectly that might have been done in practice. The ideals were good ones. Still are.

The Confederacy was instituted to preserve the institution of slavery. That might not have been the only issue, but it was by the admission of several state governments one of their big issues. That's why this is a bad parallel.

That said, I realize that many Southerners might not view the Confederate flag as meaning racism or slavery. To them, it might represent their love of Southern culture and identity. Still, it doesn't mean that to many Americans.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Nicholas Deka said:

Paradoxum, you're from the UK right? Does anyone there (that is a UK born and raised citizen) fly the American flag? I would kind of see that as the same thing. Well if anyone actually did that, you all seem a little more reasonable than us in a lot of ways.

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In the UK you are labelled a racist if you fly the Union Jack, nevermind the US flag. Flying a flag in the UK is extremely rare and flying the UK flag is usually interpreted as a statement against immigration hence racist, unless it is a government/public building obviously.

How long before black artists appropriate the confederate flag, like they have appropriated the N word? i.e try to make it a smbol of empowerment, rather than oppression. Or maybe the oppression of the white intellect by the color of skin.

Paradoxum said:

Is flying the Confederate flag significantly different from flying the Nazi flag?

I'd say it's pretty much the same. The Confederate flag represents racism and slavery, like the Nazi flag represents racism and genocide.

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I never know who has the authority to determine what a symbol stands for.

Holoman said:

But if a symbol is commonly used to promote racism then it becomes a racist symbol. Take the Swastika, it is a symbol of luck in Hinduism, as well as being a Buddhist symbol. But if someone gets a swastika tattoo and walks around the US, they will be wearing a racist symbol.

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I disagree. It's only a racist symbol if that is the intent of the wearer.

Of course, people may generally assume it is racist, and the wearer should probably expect that they will. But the symbol itself is not inherently racist. No symbol is inherently anything.

Armoured said:

Um, great. What's your point? What does it have to do with my comment?

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Oh, sorry. I should have just replied and not quoted. I removed your comment in my post.

rider99 said:

Wouldn't it be nice if people devoted a little of this passion to things that actually mattered, like four dead Americans in Benghazi, leadership who watched men fighting for their lives for 7 hours and did nothing, a government cover-up, systematic lying to the American people, a man arrested because he made a video very few people ever saw making light of the false prophet, and the fact that the woman personally responsible for the death of an American ambassador thinks she should be elected president because she's female? Seriously, whining about a flag while our country is rotting away and terrorists are winning all over the world is a pathetic waste of energy.

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Yay! Haven't had a good Benghazi derail in a while! Yep, 4 dead at Benghazi years ago means the terrorists are winning. 9 dead in Charleston last week don't even rate a mention.

Nicholas Deka said:

Paradoxum, you're from the UK right? Does anyone there (that is a UK born and raised citizen) fly the American flag?

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Except We (the US) won that war. Twice. 1783 and 1815.

Armoured said:

Yay! Haven't had a good Benghazi derail in a while! Yep, 4 dead at Benghazi years ago means the terrorists are winning. 9 dead in Charleston last week don't even rate a mention.

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"Don't let a good crisis go to waste" - Rahm Emanuel

This administration is obviously not interested in the number 4 or 9.

Eudaimonist said:

I realize that many Southerners might not view the Confederate flag as meaning racism or slavery. To them, it might represent their love of Southern culture and identity.

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And the swastika may just mean German culture to some germans.

Believe that and I will show you my ocean beach property in Nevada ..... Its for sale if you are interested ...

outsidethecamp said:

Here are some facts about the civil war, much was not taught in history class but more and more are becoming aware today. much of this I have read but most I learned from 2nd hand accounts, old men that were eye witnesses to what really happened in those days.


1) - slavery was not an issue, it was part of it but not why the war was fought.

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It was a highly significant reason for the secession and the war.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

Seen in everything from the writings of the leaders of the south to the secession documents of the war to southerners in the early 1900s being shocked that some people were misrepresenting the goals (that is, misrepresenting it as not being about white supremacy). Indeed, one of the proposals to avoid the war involved ensuring that the south could keep their slaves - why would anyone propose that if that wasn't the main conflict here? It drew support from the south and failed because the republicans in congress voted it down.

2) the south was being bled dry by economic restrictions from the union., and they felt like they were losing their rights and freedoms as the federal government was oppressing their state rights. this was the big deal that pushed the south over the edge.

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Yes, their "state rights" to buy and own human beings. Arguing "the government is trampling my rights" is not a convincing argument when the right the government is trampling is "the right to buy and own slaves".

3) this is just a personal observation. i think there was a predetermined looting of the south. you can find this tactic over and over in history. one greedy country wants to plunder another, they push that country till they push back, then they have precedence to declare war. read the history of the Roman empire. it was no coincidence that every single thing of economic value in the south was taken over by tycoons from the north.

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Some citation on any of this would be nice, as it completely contradicts the mainstream historical account. The "lost cause" mythos belongs in the same category of historical revisionism as the insistence that the Native Americans were somehow "savages" - with similar disturbing consequences for race relations.

There is a reason why so many refer to it as The War of Northern Aggression

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How many scholars do? How many historians will support that view of the war? You know, given that the south seceded (nothing in the constitution allows for this) in order to try to protect the institution of slavery, and then proceeded to attack a US army outpost, I'm willing to bet it's not many.

outsidethecamp said:

After the War between States The South has been attacked over and over again. First it was carpetbaggers and other reconstruction characters, unfortunately with a lot of help from all sorts of scalawags...I'm not saying that the South itself is innocent, our history has a lot of flaws and we've gotten our shameful parts as well...but, the attacks on symbols are troublesome, by doing this the Southern features are slowly wiped out and the story about the war is being the story told from the north.

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Uh... What? No, the story about the war is being told by historians. People who have studied the available evidence and reached informed conclusions, plus have been trained in how to evaluate historical information. The fact that this doesn't line up with the "Lost Cause" narrative doesn't mean that the war is being revised by the winners - it means that that's where the evidence points.

Trying to stop the honoring of the confederacy and its symbology is not trying to erase southern culture. It's recognizing that what's there is not worth honoring. The soldiers who fought and died for the confederacy no more merit a memorial than the soldiers who fought and died for the Third Reich. The confederate battle flag no more belongs on state capitols than the Parteiadler belongs waving over Warsaw.