The Conartistry of the Graham Crusade Exposed

[Enow]

"It is not going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is not by trying to keep the Ten Commandments that is going to save you. It is all those that call upon the name of the Lord".

Sounds like the Good News to me. Now don't blink.

"If you are not sure you are saved: come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ".

Huh? I was expecting something like: "If you had called upon the name of the Lord, know that you are saved."

But no.

So what does that mean exactly, if you are not sure you are saved, make a commitment to follow Christ?

Does it mean you are to go to church every Sunday so as to not forsake the assembly in following Jesus?

Does it mean keeping the Ten Commandments and more because the standard of Jesus is higher than the works of the Law in order to follow Jesus?

So making a commitment to follow Christ means that "you are saving yourself" because keeping that commitment to follow Christ means going to church every Sunday and keeping the Ten Commandments and MORE!!!

Have believers been blinking? Were our eyes closed along with our discerning ears at the altar call issued forth by the Graham Crusade? Mine sure was.

I thank the Lord that Jesus delivered me from my yoke of bondages as I am no longer in a religion but in a relationship based on trust of which I am trusting Jesus to help me live the christian life as well as trusting in Him that I have eternal life.... thus fulfilling the scriptures that the just shall live by faith.

God is committed to us through Jesus Christ and that is why all the promises of God are "yes" in Jesus Christ. Jesus began the work, and He will finish it to His glory. Trust Him in that. Trust Him as Your Good Shepherd as well as Your Saviour for He will do it, so rest in Him.

It is kind of hard to be resting in Him and all His promises to us when believers are striving to keep that commitment to follow Christ as the means for the assurance of salvation.

If anyone seeks to be justified by keeping that commitment to follow Christ: you have fallen from grace.

So ask Jesus to set you free and do not entangle yourself in any further religious yokes of bondages. Place all your hope on Jesus Christ in living as His for the power in living the christian life is of God and not of us.

2 Corinthians 4:5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2 Corinthians 3: 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Galatians 5: 1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Philippians 1: 6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: .... 9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Hebrews 4: 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 5: 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5: 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Hebrews 4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.... 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


The glory of the Lord is that He is the Good Shepherd as well as the Saviour. Trust Him and all His promises to you so you can be at liberty to rest in Him to lead you away from temptations and deliver you from the evil one as only He can present you as the chaste bride in Heaven. That is why we will thank Him and give Him all the glory. That is why crowns will be casted at His feet for they are His crowning achievements in us.

So stop looking to yourself to do it by keeping your commitment to follow Christ: look to Him, our first love.

Galatians 2: 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The same goes with "if righteousness comes by keeping your commitment to follow Christ, then Christ is dead in vain."

We follow Jesus by faith in Him and all His promises to us: thus a relationship based on trust. If it is not we who live but Christ liveth in us: then we can not make a commitment to follow Him nor is there a need to because His New Covenant declares His commitment to us in that He will help us to follow Him by the grace of God so put your trust in the Lord. Yes: it is so easy that little children can come to Him and all they can do is trust the Lord. Why else are the poor in spirit blessed other than that they have come to the end of themselves in being totally dependent on God to help them?

May God cause the increase, and may the Truth set you free.

 

[wayseer]

"It is not going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is not by trying to keep the Ten Commandments that is going to save you. It is all those that call upon the name of the Lord".

You appear to be quoting someone - who?

Sounds like the Good News to me.

Yes - sure does. Do you have a problem with it?

Now don't blink.

<snip>

So making a commitment to follow Christ means that "you are saving yourself" because keeping that commitment to follow Christ means going to church every Sunday and keeping the Ten Commandments and MORE!!!

Huh? Where did that come from?

If I keep my eyes on God I am 'saving myself'? Presumably if I dare even to pray to God I am doing so to 'save myself'? Apparently because I make it a practice to go to church on Sunday I am 'saving myself'?

Have believers been blinking? Were our eyes closed along with our discerning ears at the altar call issued forth by the Graham Crusade? Mine sure was.

What has Billy Graham got to do with any of this?

I don't know what theological proposition you are promoting but as it stands it is really wonky.

An altar call is about commitment - not about saving oneself. The whole of the Christian faith is about commitment.

 

[tturt]

I could be wrong but it sounds like that you're confused about the message of the Graham ministry and want to use it as a justification to support your decision not to belong to a particular denomination, church, etc. Don't get me wrong - it's your decision.

We're to pray for our sisters and brothers. Sometimes I wonder - How can I pray for them when I'm holding something in my heart against them?

 

[Senecharnix]

Whoever believes that getting "saved" is the beginning and ending of the process of being blessed by the promises of Yeshua is sorely mistaken. Nobody who clings to worldly ways and means is a true Child of God. To please God, one must do their utmost to turn away from worldly ways and means and honor Yeshua's example as best they can. One of the biggest troubles with so-called Christianity is that most versions of it make it seem as if you can somehow serve both God and Mammon--or please both God and the world by saying all the right things about God, while remaining married to the Ways of Death--pride, vanity, greed, selfishness, materialism, hedonism, etc. Indeed, there is virtually no difference in most who claim to be Christians and the profane folks. That is one reason why God is in the process of putting an end to our elaborate charade. He will destroy both the nations and the churches our world. Of course, He will spare some of those among the so-called christians who are righteous and preserve them for what is to come after He finishes demolishing civilization as we know it. You can argue with that all you wish. It is, nontheless, true. For, if God allowed our grand masquerade to continue unabated much longer, we would utterly destroy our world. He has shown to me what would become of the Earth if He neglected to pull the plug on our little party. The results that I saw are far worse than what will happen even after the grand war to come, all of the wars to follow, an asteroid strike, a cataclysmic volcanic eruption, and the onset of a new glacial epoch. At least, the tribulations ahead will leave the Earth in condition to sustain life. We bunch of crazies, however, are killing her and selling our souls to keep doing so. Not good!

 

[Soulgazer]

The word "believe" should be taken right out of the English version of the Bible. It doesn't mean what people think it means. "Believe in me" does not mean "believe I exist" The whole crowd could see he existed. It meant "Trust me enough to follow me" and when taken in conjunction with "pick up thy cross", "Emulate me".


The gates aren't even closed on people who aren't sure if He existed or not, as long as they "believe on Him."

"Blessed are those that have believed without seeing"; The whole allegory of Thomas, is that you do not need physical evidence, or even belief in the physical to follow; you will be doubly blessed by following through uncertainty.

 

[Enow]

You appear to be quoting someone - who?

Being how the thread is about the Graham Crusade: I am quoting Billy Graham and since he has retired: Franklin Graham is continuing the same format. Those familar with the quote would know it, but I reckon I should have stated clearly whom I was quoting.

Yes - sure does. Do you have a problem with it?

If I stated it as the Good News: why would I have a problem with that part of the crusade?

Huh? Where did that come from?

If I keep my eyes on God I am 'saving myself'? Presumably if I dare even to pray to God I am doing so to 'save myself'? Apparently because I make it a practice to go to church on Sunday I am 'saving myself'?

Explain what this means then.

If you are not sure you are saved.....come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ.

Does not the beginning of the sentence set the precedent on how one is to be saved?

What has Billy Graham got to do with any of this?

That is a well known altar call of the Graham Crusade.

I don't know what theological proposition you are promoting but as it stands it is really wonky.

It is the defense of the faith in Jesus Christ in that God has no confidence in man in keeping their commitment, their vow, or any promises to God in following Him. It is not a religion where it is on man to do. Christianity is a relationship based on trust in that Jesus will help us to live as His thus the just shall live by faith.

But the commitment to follow Christ is not of faith and many do glory in the flesh by it.

An altar call is about commitment - not about saving oneself.

But the altar call is given to those lacking assurance of being saved and thus in order to be saved: one comes forward by making a commitment to follow Christ.

That is my point. The conartistry of the Graham Crusade is that they preach the Gospel but at the altar call, they just flipped over and did the opposite.

The whole of the Christian faith is about commitment.

No. The whole of the christian faith is about putting your trust in the Lord. If you had called upon the name of the Lord, take Him at His word that you are saved. That is how the just shall live by faith.

 

[Enow]

I could be wrong but it sounds like that you're confused about the message of the Graham ministry and want to use it as a justification to support your decision not to belong to a particular denomination, church, etc. Don't get me wrong - it's your decision.

We're to pray for our sisters and brothers. Sometimes I wonder - How can I pray for them when I'm holding something in my heart against them?

I agree that we are to pray for them, but you need to be made aware that there is a need to pray for them and all those that answer that altar call.

And yes: I had conacted the Graham Crusade and no results.

In several interviews, Billy Graham had stated that he doubted that he would be accepted by Jesus in Heaven because he was not always a good christian. So how does one escape seeing his commitment as a means for justification?

And that is the precedent for answering the altar call:

If you are not sure you are saved.... come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ.

So by coming forward and making this commitment to follow Christ and keeping it, one can have the assurance of salvation?

Now believers will say that it was not really what Billy Graham had meant, but the words are right there and apparently it is what he had meant because he was and is judging himself by it in not being received by Jesus Christ because of him not always being a good christian.

The fact that Franklin uses the same format in the crusade pretty much shows little regards to changing that altar call to reflect the Gospel message that was just preached prior to that altar call.

So what is the faith that declares how we will be received by Him?

Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So irregardless: anyone placing the assurance of salvation on keeping that commitment to follow Christ has fallen from grace.

This is called labouring in unbelief.

The works of catholicism is another example, but I digress.

Either our hope is on Him for living the christian life as the same for eternal life or we have yet to cease from our works in trusting Him to do His.

 

[Enow]

The whole concept of "Salvation" is lost. "Salvation" has the same root as "Salve", and is used to describe the condition that the soul is in need of, as in a "sick" soul.
"Physician, heal thyself". "Why do you not clean the inside of the cup?" "committed adultery in the heart", "be ye therefor perfect" are all Jesus reminders that we do "salve" ourselves. We are freed from the Law(Torah) by Jesus' sacrifice. But He reminded us again and again of our responsibilities. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". Don't let your heart be filled with strife. Or lust, or anger, or cravings for material items.

"Some therefore of the Pharisees said, This man is not from God, because he keepeth not the sabbath. But others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such signs? And there was division among them. "

Apply this to our faith and discern your quote with His help.

Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Galatians 3: 1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 5: 1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.... 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So what are our "responsiblities"?

Trusting the Lord in helping us to live as His in loving others as we trust Him for our salvation.

1 John 3: 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Verse 23 sums it up in our relationship with God to be found abiding in Him.

Believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ in being Our Good Shepherd as well as Our Saviour and thereby leaning on Him for the love we need to love others, even our enemies.

1 John 5: 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Again, christianity stands apart from the world in that it is not a religion where the emphasis for obtaining righteousness is on the followers: but christianity is a relationship based on trust and it is by faith in Him that we can follow Him while we rest in Him that we have obtained eternal life.

 

[Enow]

Whoever believes that getting "saved" is the beginning and ending of the process of being blessed by the promises of Yeshua is sorely mistaken. Nobody who clings to worldly ways and means is a true Child of God. To please God, one must do their utmost to turn away from worldly ways and means and honor Yeshua's example as best they can. ......For, if God allowed our grand masquerade to continue unabated much longer, ............Not good!

What happens when anyone believes in Jesus Christ? What happens at the moment of salvation?

Ephesians 1:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

So a child of God is saved as all those that believe in Him are saved.

The question is: how does one build on that foundation in Christ Jesus?

Do we sow to the works of the flesh or to the fruits of the Spirit?

Do we seek to obtain righteousness by trying to keep the law by the religious flesh of bondages or do we live that reconciled relationship with God by trusting Him to help us live as His as the Good Shepherd He is?

Jesus spoke to His disciples on how to abide in Him.

This pretty much sums it up.

1 John 3: 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

One has to consider how we are being witnesses of Him. Do we bear witness of Him by declaring our faith in Him or by our commitment to follow Christ? It cannot be by our commitment to follow Christ because that commitment speaks of us and testifies of us. It is to our glory as a religious man that we keep that commitment to follow Him.

John 7:18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Proverbs 25: 27It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.


How did John the Baptist witnessed in serving the One that sent him?

John 3:28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease.

What is a false witness?

John 5:31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

What defiles a man?

Matthew 15:10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. ....18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man:

How did Paul witness in having this relationship with Jesus?

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him,

If we expect others to see our hope in Christ Jesus in living the christian life as well as receiving the free gift of eternal life, then we must not bear witness of our flesh by keeping the commitment to follow Christ since by doing so is bearing false witness of ourselves in seeking our glory by keeping it.

We are to follow Jesus, but by faith that He will enable us to follow Him.

Keeping the commitment to follow Christ is a religious striving that the religious of the world is familiar with.

Living by faith in Christ is foolishness to the religious of the world.

1 Corinthians 1: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

One can say that many mighty men and nobles have answered such religious callings in making commitments: indeed: as if that commitment to follow Christ was not enough, then comes along the Promise Keepers program.

And still it is not enough. The vanity of prefecting ourselves by the flesh.

Time for believers to ask Jesus to set them free from all religious yokes of bondages since we are His workmanship as we should trust Him to finish it.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

You can make all the long posts you want, you are still just a man trying to destroy the reputation of a great man of God and who the Lord has used to save many people, maybe more than any other one man (other than Paul).

 

[Enow]

The word "believe" should be taken right out of the English version of the Bible. It doesn't mean what people think it means. "Believe in me" does not mean "believe I exist" The whole crowd could see he existed. It meant "Trust me enough to follow me" and when taken in conjunction with "pick up thy cross", "Emulate me".

To further expound on my hope in Jesus Christ: I trust Him to help me to follow Him since I have no confidence in my flesh to do it.

When we lack such confidence in the flesh in following Jesus, why then do believers look to a religious yoke as if to see proof of their sincerity in following Jesus? Do we have confidence in their flesh? We should not.

And even Paul spoke against anything that would make the Gentiles obedient by word and deed. Paul avoided taking any credit by not placing a religious yoke on others, thus fully preaching the Gospel.

Romans 15: 15Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 17I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 18For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

So lacking confidence in our flesh to follow Jesus by keeping that commitment to follow Christ, we place our confidence in Our Enabler to help us to follow Him thus we live by faith as our faith bears witness of Him and all His promises to us.

That is how sinners will see the hope we have in Christ Jesus when we declare our faith in Him and not by speaking of our commitment to follow Christ which sinners cannot see in themselves to make, seeing how sin has dominion over their lives. This is why Jesus came to do that which man cannot accomplish by the religious flesh so that by trusting Him at His word, they will be empowered to live the christian life by the grace of God.

 

[Enow]

You can make all the long posts you want, you are still just a man trying to destroy the reputation of a great man of God and who the Lord has used to save many people, maybe more than any other one man (other than Paul).

Even though you interjected the Lord in there, the whole basis of your quote is to defend the man in seeking his glory as saving so many.

Ironic how you would give such a credit to the man. I have heard him repeatedly trying to humble himself from taking any credit, and yet why is it that he needs to? Because he has led those coming forward into making a commitment to follow Christ, thus the credit goes to him. It is impossible for him not to take any credit for it. His denying such credit would fall under the category of a "humble brag".

Luke 6:26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

1 Corinthians 3: 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Paul would never do what Billy Graham has done by leading the believers to make a commitment to follow Christ thus making the Gentiles obedient by word and deed and therefore failing to fully preach the Gospel.

Romans 15: 15Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 17I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 18For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

 

[wayseer]

Being how the thread is about the Graham Crusade: I am quoting Billy Graham and since he has retired: Franklin Graham is continuing the same format. Those familar with the quote would know it, but I reckon I should have stated clearly whom I was quoting.

It is a good idea to acknowledge your references- saves confusion.

If I stated it as the Good News: why would I have a problem with that part of the crusade?

You will no doubt explain - I hope.

Explain what this means then.

If you are not sure you are saved.....come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ.

Does not the beginning of the sentence set the precedent on how one is to be saved?

The opening clause is a modifying clause to the subject - 'saved' being both a noun and a adjective) - identified by the use of the work 'if'. You have chosen to accept that the modifying clause is not modifying but assertive. That is a mistake of grammar.

You have then compounded your grammatical error by assuming the 'how' of the subject 'saved' whereas the sentence is all about the 'why'.

But the commitment to follow Christ is not of faith and many do glory in the flesh by it.

What? Apart from the poor grammar theologically you are at odds with the Gospel which makes it quite clear that we are save through faith and this not of ourselves.

But the altar call is given to those lacking assurance of being saved and thus in order to be saved: one comes forward by making a commitment to follow Christ.

And ...

That is my point. The conartistry of the Graham Crusade is that they preach the Gospel but at the altar call, they just flipped over and did the opposite.

I just don't follow your reasoning.

No. The whole of the christian faith is about putting your trust in the Lord. If you had called upon the name of the Lord, take Him at His word that you are saved. That is how the just shall live by faith.

In other words, you seem to be saying that one's lack of confidence is exhibited by responding to an altar call which thereby indicates that one does not trust God at his word and therefore has little faith.

You may well be right on that point - but who among us can claim to have the ultimate amount of faith and trust on hand? Me? You? Don't think so.

I think you are making a mountain out of the preverbal molehill. I see no theological questionable activity involved, either by Billy Graham or by those responding to any altar call. If it becomes a habit that one feels the need to respond to each and every altar call then I might ask some questions about the psychological dependency exhibited.

Nope - I don't think you have anything like a good argument here.

 

[Enow]

It is a good idea to acknowledge your references- saves confusion.

God be willing, I shall do better.

You will no doubt explain - I hope.

It had been explained but I shall re iterate that part of the crusade that I agree with as the Good News.

"It is not be going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is not by trying to keep the Ten commandments that is going to save you. It is all those that call upon the name of the Lord." ~ Billy Graham

That is the Gospel. That is what I agree with as Good News.

The opening clause is a modifying clause to the subject - 'saved' being both a noun and a adjective) - identified by the use of the work 'if'. You have chosen to accept that the modifying clause is not modifying but assertive. That is a mistake of grammar.

You have then compounded your grammatical error by assuming the 'how' of the subject 'saved' whereas the sentence is all about the 'why'.

I disagree with your assessment and your garmmarical application.

If you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ.

Come forward to make a commitment to follow Christ: why?: if you are not sure you are saved.

So a person comes forward to make a commitment to follow Christ simply because they are not sure they are saved.

So on the basis of coming forward is to obtain the assurance that they are saved.

The basis of coming forward is to make a commitment to follow Christ.

The assurance of salvation is based on what? Making that commitment when it denotes an action in doing something?

Then it is by keeping that commitment to follow Christ is why one having an assurance of salvation?

What? Apart from the poor grammar theologically you are at odds with the Gospel which makes it quite clear that we are save through faith and this not of ourselves.

Poor grammar or not: why did he not say that if you are not sure you are saved: if you have called upon the name of the Lord, know that you are saved?

Following Jesus for the assurance of salvation is leaving one working for that salvation thus one not having obtained it yet since you are still required to keep following Him in order to have that salvation.

I just don't follow your reasoning.

All I see you doing is rationalizing the altar call when it is entirely different from the Good News he had just preached.

In other words, you seem to be saying that one's lack of confidence is exhibited by responding to an altar call which thereby indicates that one does not trust God at his word and therefore has little faith.

In this word: that altar call is something mighty men and nobles would respond to. It is something that the religious men of the world could get behind because that commitment speaks to them and to their merits.

You may well be right on that point - but who among us can claim to have the ultimate amount of faith and trust on hand? Me? You? Don't think so.

It is not the amount of faith but on Whom that faith is applied to.

I think you are making a mountain out of the preverbal molehill. I see no theological questionable activity involved, either by Billy Graham or by those responding to any altar call. If it becomes a habit that one feels the need to respond to each and every altar call then I might ask some questions about the psychological dependency exhibited.

Nope - I don't think you have anything like a good argument here.

I have met a woman that did not want to come to Jesus yet because she believed she had to clean up her life first before coming to Christ. That religious guantlet would get in the way of people coming to Christ when sin has dominion over their lives. Fortunately, the Lord led me to bear witness to her and she saw the hope in Christ to be free to come to Him.

I saw a poster in another christian forum that testified that keeping the commitment to follow Christ was hard and testified to the hypocrisey and false witnes of other people in how they would claim they have kept that commitment and yet all the while point out for others that they need to make a "recommitment". That person stopped being a believer.

One man testified how hard it was to keep that commitment to follow Christ, saying that the devil was hard at him to break it. He went on to declare that children should not make that commitment to follow Christ because they do not know what they are getting into. That man went from being a congregational member to being a pastor of another church.

I saw one guy on TV that stated that he tried christianity, but "it" didn't work.

Even Billy Graham himself doubted that Christ would receve him because he was not a good christian. That commitment to follow Christ has to be the source of that doubt.

As much as everyone wants to pat Billy Graham on the back: sounds to me that his altar call offers no assurance in answering the question about "if you are not sure you are saved."

So I declare that the altar call is a 180 degree turn about from the Gospel message that he had spoken before that altar call.

Religious believers and the world need to know that christianity is not a religion where man can boast in their flesh of keeping that commitment to follow Him.

To obey the Gospel of grace is to believe in Him.

John 6: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The commitment to follow Christ is of the will of the flesh and of the will of man. How can any believer speak to their faith when their commitment says otherwise? How can any believer claim those verses above as part of his testimony in how he was saved, let alone, how he is living by faith?


If no red flags are raised by this, brother: there is not much more I can say to this matter.

 

[Senecharnix]

Enow, I think you truly mean well. From my perspective, though, you sound like the perfect illustration of a false teacher--the kind that have corrupted so-called Christianity to the point that it has become thoroughly repugnant to God and the Son. Your understanding is very small. Righteousness is way of being and acting that goes far beyond honoring laws. It is of the mind, heart, spirit, and soul--and it is what the Children of God are supposed to strive to become. Again and again, Yeshua warned about the fate of servants who are slackers, foolish, and follow their own will. They shall end up burning in the trash heap of lost souls....

The adherents of The Way did their best to be righteous. In doing so, they rejected the ways of the world and adopted a communal lifestyle whereby they shared everything and did nothing for their own comfort or glory. They did their best to live the right way. Then, after the Church began to grow in the wake of the completion of the split between Judiaism and the Way, she became less and less faithful to The Way, while becoming more and more "Christian." In doing so, she wandered farther and farthe off course until she became hopelessly lost. Meanwhile, her faithful began to compromise more and more until it became OK for them to remain married to the ways of the world, while saying and doing all of the right church-approved things in order to claim that they were "Christians." God has remained less and less amused ever since....

During a vision not so long ago, it was made clear to me what the fate of most folks shall be whether they claim to be "Christians" or offer no pretensions about being profane. The bottom line is that not many folks are going to avoid Hell's flames. It does not matter how good and nice they might seem or how heroically they lived or died--even most of those who give their lives to spare others will not avoid condemnation. That is bcause most folks--even among so-called Christians--are children of the Devil. They honor the ways of the world in their minds, their hearts, their spirits, their souls, and by the way that they live. That is why even so-called Christian nations are darkling realms. They are of the Devil just as surely as are Communist and Islamic nations. God's judgment weighs heavily against them and the majority of their inhabitants. They shall not escape the fate that He has prepared for them for daring to celebrate their self-righteousness, while reveling in their evil ways and means....

Lastly, God and the Son do not expect of us to attain perfection. But they do require that we try our best to become as righteous as possible. Never forget that, before anyone can claim the salvation that Yeshua offers, they must repent--and that means trying to change one's ways for the better. The faith part of it comes from clinging to the hope that the Son will honor his promise of salvation. By the way, merely doing "good works" is not going to be nearly good enough. One must change the way one thinks as well as change their heart for the better. The Holy Spirit is more than willing to help those who earnestly strive to improve themselves. Adopting humility is the key. God and the Son will reject anyone and everyone that remains prideful, vain, arrogant, and/or self-righteous. Those who love glory, honor, wealth, and/or luxury will also be rejected. So, too, will those who idolize anything or anyone as will those who lack compassion or charity (being lenient in one's judgment of others). So, keep believing you can just ride your faith to salvation, while doing and thinking whatever you please and honoring the ways of the Death. If you do, a very nasty surprise will greet you after your last breath....

 

[wayseer]

If no red flags are raised by this, brother: there is not much more I can say to this matter.

No red flags waving about here.

The act of faith is an act of something. To that end it might be said one is 'working' towards one's salvation. But you are splitting hairs for no good purpose.

I don't think God really minds in the least 'how' you come - he has already made his advance.

 

[plmarquette]

go back and reread what Jesus and the 12 teach, it is not "OSAS"...
do not put hand to plow and draw back
some, even the elect will be deceived
do not let your faith be shipwrecked
do not be deceived by false teachers
many will come and say Heres jesus
.....to church people not to the unsaved...

Graham is saying backslidden, religious, churched, saved...come and get saved, rededicate, start over....James 2 is there evidence of your faith, if not you do not have any...people get saved and are pastored locally...Graham has no church , he is an evangelist...

every day, get up, do your best, repent for sins, and rejoice for victories...

 

[Soulgazer]

Oh dear. God alone is free to Judge Mr Graham. I naturally do not agree with everything that he says, but I know God.

The pharisee loved scripture so much that they didn't recognize the Lord when he was standing right in front of them. If they had loved God as well as they loved scripture they would have thrown their arms around Him. Love God, and love your neighbors. That is sufficient. If you want to be perfect, then sell all you have, pick up your cross and be just like Jesus.

 

[Enow]

......Again and again, Yeshua warned about the fate of servants who are slackers, foolish, and follow their own will. They shall end up burning in the trash heap of lost souls....

Jesus warned about obtaining righteousness by your own merits: because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak: therefore what is impossible with man, is possible with God. That is why the just shall live by faith as they are not to look to their religious selves in living the christian life, but to Jesus Christ as they look to Him for eternal life.

Christianity is a relationship based on trust: it is not a religion whereon man could boast.

The adherents of The Way did their best to be righteous. ....They did their best to live the right way. ......

Compare the above quote with the one below. They are contrary.

....Adopting humility is the key. God and the Son will reject anyone and everyone that remains prideful, vain, arrogant, and/or self-righteous. ....So, too, will those who idolize anything or anyone as will those who lack compassion or charity (being lenient in one's judgment of others).

We are to correct one another in love, rebuke harshly for some so that they may be sound in the faith: in meekness towards others in the hopes that God may peradventure give them knowledge unto repentance so that some may be recovered from the snare of the devil.

So, keep believing you can just ride your faith to salvation, while doing and thinking whatever you please and honoring the ways of the Death. If you do, a very nasty surprise will greet you after your last breath....

I do not know where you would get the idea that I advocate living in sin.

I am testifying by His grace and help that living by faith in Jesus Christ as Your Good Shepherd: trusting Him to lead you and guide you in the way you ought to go: trusting Him to lead you away from temptation and delivering you from the evil one because His is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever in helping us to live the christian life just as He is bringing us Home by His righteousness and His alone for eternal life as Our Saviour.

So beware: there is living in sin by sowing to the flesh: but there is also living in sin by engaging in works that deny Him as being able to save.

Salvation is a free gift: believers are warned about how they build on that foundation after being bought with a price and sealed as His. Those that defile the temple of God, run the risk of being chastened, scourged, and destroyed into becoming that vessel unto dishonour in God's House.

So even those that have been led astray by errant doctrines and had their faith overthrown: those that have His seal are called to depart from inqiuity with His help and grace so that they may obtain that eternal glory of being that vessel unto honour in God's House. 2 Timothy 2:10-26

Hebrews 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 1: 26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So as much as religious men of the world glory in themselves by their commitments: testifying of their will and their sincerity: it is faith in Christ that testifies to His will and His New Covenant to us that we shall be able to live the christian life as well as resting in Him for eternal life.

John 1: 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Titus 3:4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

So we are not working for our salvation. We are to do good works to abide in Him so that we may be that vessel unto honour in His House.

Romans 11: 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It is important that one is made aware where this righteousness that gets believers into Heaven comes from.

Hebrews 4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.... 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Romans 3: 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Colossians 1: 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So no man made bondage or commitents is going to justify anyone.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.... 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Again: you are saved as in bought with a price and sealed as His. We live by faith in Jesus as Our Saviour in having saved us and thereby we live that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ by that same faith that He will enable us to live the christian life.

Ephesians 2: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Believers that are saved are called to abide in Him so that they may be received by the Bridegroom for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. If they are not abiding in Him: they are called to depart from iniquity so that they can abide in Him.

1 John 3:22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

We do not finish His workmanship in us: we place our confidence in Jesus to finish it and that is why the just shall live by faith.

Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: ... 9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Children are free to come to Jesus and I doubt that the religious of the world could ever see children as mature enough to be serious in making a commitment to follow Christ: and that is why Jesus did not place a yoke of bondage on His disciples or anyone to "make" them follow Him because Jesus is to be Lord over them: not a yoke of bondage.

Mark 10:13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

So what can a child do but trust the Lord?

Psalm 118:8It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

John 2: 23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

So why testify to those of the Way and to look to others to do that which is not in the power of man to do? We are to testify of our hope in Christ in living the christian life.

2 Corinthians 3:4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

In ministry as well as in living the christian life:

2 Corinthians 4: 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Believers that speak of their commitments to follow Christ cannot say they are not preaching themselves.

That is why the just shall live by faith as they speak of their faith in Christ in bearing witness of the Son and our hope in Him in seeking His glory.

 

[Enow]

The act of faith is an act of something. To that end it might be said one is 'working' towards one's salvation.

If one is working towards one's salvation: then they are labouring in unbelief and faith has been made void. Hebrews 4:1-3,9-11