The Christian dilemma

rmwilliamsll · Jun 30, 2004

Because if evolution over millions of years is true then it would mean that God created the world with a violent, messy and cruel proccess. It would mean that animal suffering, earthquakes, death and disease would have been happening as part of Gods creative proccess and all this would have been happening a LONG time before humans were about. If death and suffering was around BEFORE the fall of man (or if in deed there was no fall) then all the evil in the world is not the result of Mans sin or Mans rebellion against God.
I beleive disease to be either Gods Wrath (in response to Sin) or Satan being allowed to attack the world with disease. But in both these cases evolution doesnt work! In the case of the first; How could God be judging and punishing the world before there is someone to punish? and in the case of the latter then it would be God who invited Satan into the world and not humanity through sin!!

God created the world good, not perfect. God alone is perfect in any significant sense. Good is a moral term, morality only applies to God and to mankind. Animals are a-moral , creation is consistently labelled 'good' in Genesis 1 to demonstrate that God was content with His work, it was good not in any sense in or of itself, but rather only as an outworking, as a result of the creative activity of God. Whatever processes God used to create are by definition good as they come from God. you however argue the opposite, from a misapplication you argue from your position that animal dead is not-good to arrive at a proof by contradiction that God can not have used evolution to create. That is simply back-asswards. You start with God, God is good, God created the universe good. Now look at the universe and see exactly what that means. Read the book of nature via modern science and understand that you are reading God's thoughts after Him.

PaladinValer · Jun 30, 2004

**Agrees with Andreas on all issues**

mhess13 · Jun 30, 2004

Andreas said:
I believe that only God knows a man's heart. Why does a man reject Christ? Does he know who Christ is? Or is he rejecting a misconception of Chirst? And at the same time, does a man who accepts Christ always know who he's accepting? Or is salvation based on believing in the name Christ? Irregardless of what it means in a man's heart?

What I'm saying is that circumstances can dictate peoples choices, and whether or not an Atheist will be forgiven for his mistake by the God of mercy is not known to me.

This is what happens when you start to compromise the clear teaching of scripture. (as in creation) You get on such a slippery slope that you don't even understand salvation anymore!!!!!! BEWARE FOLKS!!!

I mean for goodness sake, the most basic aspect of the plan of redemption is that ALL have sinned and are headed for hell. That's why Christ offers the free gift of pardon by his sacrifice. An atheist won't be punished for his "mistake", but because God cannot let anyone into heaven who isn't clothed in the righteousness of Christ. ANYONE who hasn't accepted this sacrifice is LOST. Period. A professing atheist can not have believed with their heart that Christ died for their sins and rose from the dead. Otherwise they wouldn't be an atheist, but a christian!!!!!!!
There is no other way to be saved

Andreas, with all due respect do you understand the nature of salvation? Your post suggests that you don't.

This post really helps prove my point....

Orthodox Andrew · Jun 30, 2004

mhess13 said:
This is what happens when you start to compromise the clear teaching of scripture. (as in creation) You get on such a slippery slope that you don't even understand salvation anymore!!!!!! BEWARE FOLKS!!!

I mean for goodness sake, the most basic aspect of the plan of redemption is that ALL have sinned and are headed for hell. That's why Christ offers the free gift of pardon by his sacrifice. An atheist won't be punished for his "mistake", but because God cannot let anyone into heaven who isn't clothed in the righteousness of Christ. ANYONE who hasn't accepted this sacrifice is LOST. Period. A professing atheist can not have believed with their heart that Christ died for their sins and rose from the dead. Otherwise they wouldn't be an atheist, but a christian!!!!!!!
There is no other way to be saved

Andreas, with all due respect do you understand the nature of salvation? Your post suggests that you don't.

This post really helps prove my point....

Big mistake there. Through God all things are possible.

I don't subscribe to your beliefs about salvation, but yes I understand as much as any human can understand about salvation.

PaladinValer · Jun 30, 2004

Salvation is through the Grace of God only, no matter how much we are faithful, or how benevolent our works are, or whether we were baptized in Triune Form or not. It is the choice of God and God alone.

If He wants to allow a Mormon to go to heaven, that is His choice. If He wishes a Hindu the benefit of heaven, that is His Will. If He desires an Atheist to go to heaven, He will act on it. God is the Judge, not us. We are not to Judge another's fate or salvation because it isn't any bit of our business.

Who made you God, mhess13, to declare the fate of individuals? Who made you God, mhess13, to boast and brag of your salvation that isn't in your hands? Who made you God, mhess13, who is just as ignorant about all the Mysteries of our Christian faith as the rest of us?

If you are not God, then you do not know these things. And for your own caution, it would be wise and who of you to not Judge, for those who do shall themselves be Judged the same.

Orthodox Andrew · Jun 30, 2004

Exactly!

Dark_Lite · Jun 30, 2004

I find mhess13 to be rather funny. Thankfully the world's and this boards opinion of what constitutes Christianity is not up to him... We'd probably lose half of the active populace :O

L'Anatra · Jun 30, 2004

Dark_Lite said:
I find mhess13 to be rather funny. Thankfully the world's and this boards opinion of what constitutes Christianity is not up to him... We'd probably lose half of the active populace :O

If not more.

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Jul 1, 2004

Mhess - Christianity is bigger than your particular brand of protestant fundamentalism.

Indeed, the Orthodox (Andreas) and Anglican Catholic (PV and I) traditions are far older than fundamentalism, and have a far longer pedigree.

Enigma'07 · Jul 1, 2004

None of them. They are all lies, and therefore anyone one would be a sin to say.

Bonhoffer · Jul 1, 2004

Enigma'07 said:
None of them. They are all lies, and therefore anyone one would be a sin to say.

I agree, therefore there must be another option as to the worlds origins; because both theistic evolution and young earth creationism lead to either calling God unjustly brutal or a liar. But whatever this third option is it must 1)conform to the Bible 2) explain all the evidence for fossils/millions of years etc....

The Christian dilemma

What is the less blasmphmous thing to say?

The Christian God isnt real

The Christian God is imperfect

The Christian God is a liar

rmwilliamsll

avid reader

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PaladinValer

Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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mhess13

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Orthodox Andrew

Orthodox Church- Telling The Truth Since 33 A.D.

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PaladinValer

Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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Orthodox Andrew

Orthodox Church- Telling The Truth Since 33 A.D.

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Dark_Lite

Chewbacha

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L'Anatra

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Karl - Liberal Backslider

Senior Veteran

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Enigma'07

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Bonhoffer

Hoping......

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The Christian dilemma

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