The Charismatic Movement and Liberal Christianity

[Perceivence]

How compatible is the Charismatic Movement (and thus, the Holy Spirit) with Liberal Christians?

The way I've been seeing it, Liberal Christianity seems like the 'low-faith version' of Christianity and the Charismatic Movement the 'high-faith version'. I've been seeing Liberals discredit the classical Old Testament stories of Creation, Noah's Ark etc, and quite a few of the New Testament authors and their writings (they don't seem to like Paul).

Meanwhile we Charismatics seem to take the Old Testament and its stories quite literally and hold the New Testament authors and their writings (of which Paul is not least) in rather high esteem.

So, basically, I was wondering if there is such a thing as a "Liberal Charismatic." And what you guys' thoughts on the whole issue of 'Liberal Christianity' is.

Thanks in advanced.

 

[joevberry3]

Hi brother. I dont really know if there is such a thing as Liberal Charismatic--i dont see how there could be.
I do know what your talking about. I preach at all kinds of churches--some liberal, some conservative, some dead, some on fire, and some very charismatic.
There has been a major war going on against us Charismatics--especially the Word of Faith part.
There are some Low-faith churches as you said. Some believe miracles no longer exist, that tongues is over, that prophecy is over, and that the baptism is no longer needed.
And those same low-faith churches ridicule us for having to much faith.
I have been asked sarcastically "How many of those Word of Faith people are really healed?" Like, you know--our faith isnt working..
I would say its better to believe God's word than not believe.
I dont think this helped any--I believe i dont really understand the entire question. Im on medicine for my colon problems. Having surgery on Thursday Morning--be in prayer for me.
God Bless,
Joe

 

[Perceivence]

I will!

May God bless you and all go well with that operation!

 

[Perceivence]

As for the question on what are your thoughts on Liberal Christianity...

...I mean as it relates to the way they look at things. The whole "homosexuality not being condemned by the Bible" fiasco. The "Paul is not to be trusted" bit and all those other things that are in apparent direct contradiction to our faith...even though they profess to be more Christ-like than the 'Conservatives.' (I've see them claim that Conservatives don't obey Jesus' two commands and the like....)

 

[joevberry3]

As for the question on what are your thoughts on Liberal Christianity...

...I mean as it relates to the way they look at things. The whole "homosexuality not being condemned by the Bible" fiasco. The "Paul is not to be trusted" bit and all those other things that are in apparent direct contradiction to our faith...even though they profess to be more Christ-like than the 'Conservatives.' (I've see them claim that Conservatives don't obey Jesus' two commands and the like....)

Yeah, its hogwash. Homosexuals and its supporters are saying we dont "LOVE" them cause we condemn homosexuality. People are now even saying Paul was the antichrist. Its just a tool of Satan to get people to believe the Chruch isnt really following Christ since we condemn SIN. It will cause people to fall away from the Faith. I see it happening now and its getting worse day by day.
Even I Joevberry am called a lunatic, a fanatical, hater, and even been told to bust hell wide open by another "Christian." See Satan even has some that claim to be Christians working for him. When we support homosexuality, abortion, taken prayer out of schools, same sex marriage, when we vote for politicians because he/she may make us rich by the stock market--we are doing Satans work.
I will go into more detail a little later. Will you PM me your name? I like to know who im talking back and forth with, and it seems that maybe me and you could be friends.
God Bless,
Joe

 

[joevberry3]

I was even told by a certain Pastor that we need a dose of grace--By that he meant we shouldnt meddle in other peopls sins--let them do what they want to do. He doesnt realize thats exactly what Satan wants us to do.
I believe we will be judged by being passive and not doing anything, dont you? In fact theres a verse in the bible warning us about that.
By the way, the Pastor i refer to was in another Forums site. Very biased site. The administrators was very strict against Word of Faith, believed in OSAS--So i had to leave.
God Bless,
Joe

 

[Andyman_1970]

I agree that there is ALOT of movements/denominations/etc that claim to be "christian" but are not (they deny the accuracy of the Scriptures, stuff like that). I would say they have "liberalized" the Scriptures.

I would however say that Charismatics do not have a "corner" on the conservative end of the Christian market.

How many charismatic churches are out there that have women pastors? I take 1 Tim 3 and the requirements described there literally. I would say any church that has a woman pastor has taken those requirements and "liberalized" them, IMO. Joyce Myer is the one that comes to mind.

 

[Svt4Him]

One man said it was ok to sleep around if he spoke in tongues while having an affair. I'd call that a liberal charismatic. Actually I'd call it some other things to.

 

[Andry]

I think the term 'liberal' needs to be defined for the purposes of this discussion.

Personally, amongst my peers (people I actually know), I'm probably one of the most 'liberal' Christian I know (and this is not being braggadocious or conceited or prideful - I just don't know how to describe myself relative to other Christian friends and family).

But that does NOT mean I've loosened the Scripture's standards on doctrine, morals, or beliefs one jot or iota. I believe in God's sovereignty and the absolute inerrancy of Scriptures. My liberty comes from the knowledge of the Christ. To quote well-known Scriptures (you can look up the verse), whom the Son sets free is free indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free, for there is liberty in Christ.

I know this may sound all nice and 'spiritual', but I was raised in a conservative denomination, and very restrictive because we felt that somehow there was great holiness in the greater level of restriction we had on what we could do in life. (Now I'm very greatful for my denominational heritage, because it has brought me to where I am today).

So I don't get too wound up about many of the issues 'conservatives' get wound up about. For example (and to quote Andyman, 'not to open up a can of worms'), I don't have an issue with wine. Or marijuana (!! that should raise some eyebrows!!). I'll leave with two Scriptures:

"...for whatever is not of faith, is sin."
"Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I agree that there is ALOT of movements/denominations/etc that claim to be "christian" but are not (they deny the accuracy of the Scriptures, stuff like that). I would say they have "liberalized" the Scriptures.

I would however say that Charismatics do not have a "corner" on the conservative end of the Christian market.

How many charismatic churches are out there that have women pastors? I take 1 Tim 3 and the requirements described there literally. I would say any church that has a woman pastor has taken those requirements and "liberalized" them, IMO. Joyce Myer is the one that comes to mind.

Joyce Myer is not a Pastor. She is a teacher. She does not send people out to haul the men in so she can teach them. They show up at her meetings under their own power.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I think the term 'liberal' needs to be defined for the purposes of this discussion.

Personally, amongst my peers (people I actually know), I'm probably one of the most 'liberal' Christian I know (and this is not being braggadocious or conceited or prideful - I just don't know how to describe myself relative to other Christian friends and family).

But that does NOT mean I've loosened the Scripture's standards on doctrine, morals, or beliefs one jot or iota. I believe in God's sovereignty and the absolute inerrancy of Scriptures. My liberty comes from the knowledge of the Christ. To quote well-known Scriptures (you can look up the verse), whom the Son sets free is free indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free, for there is liberty in Christ.

I know this may sound all nice and 'spiritual', but I was raised in a conservative denomination, and very restrictive because we felt that somehow there was great holiness in the greater level of restriction we had on what we could do in life. (Now I'm very greatful for my denominational heritage, because it has brought me to where I am today).

So I don't get too wound up about many of the issues 'conservatives' get wound up about. For example (and to quote Andyman, 'not to open up a can of worms'), I don't have an issue with wine. Or marijuana (!! that should raise some eyebrows!!). I'll leave with two Scriptures:

"...for whatever is not of faith, is sin."
"Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

How about "all things are lawful but not all things are beneficial". If we are doing something just to be doing it then we are not benefiting ourselves or God. Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing, and we are told to follow in the steps of Christ. Really now...can you invision God smoking marijuana?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Joyce Myer is not a Pastor. She is a teacher. She does not send people out to haul the men in so she can teach them. They show up at her meetings under their own power.

I think my Bible also says that a woman shouldn't teach men (although it sure looks like she is the pastor). I have nothing against her personally, I just think what she is doing contrary to Scripture.

My whole point was is that Charismatics don't have a corner on the "conservative" or maybe I should say "anti-liberal" market. I would say (you can correct me if I'm wrong) but for evangelical churches (on the whole) it appears that Charismatic churches have a number of women pastors (compared to other evangelical denominations, I maybe wrong there). IMO that is "liberalizing" the Scriptures.

 

[kidsminister]

I think my Bible also says that a woman shouldn't teach men (although it sure looks like she is the pastor). I have nothing against her personally, I just think what she is doing contrary to Scripture.

My whole point was is that Charismatics don't have a corner on the "conservative" or maybe I should say "anti-liberal" market. I would say (you can correct me if I'm wrong) but for evangelical churches (on the whole) it appears that Charismatic churches have a number of women pastors (compared to other evangelical denominations, I maybe wrong there). IMO that is "liberalizing" the Scriptures.

Read the book "Ten Lies the Church Tells Women" by J. Lee Grady. He has taken the time to research and exegete the verses that are quoted and used against women being in ministry. What he finds is really surprising.

Back on topic...I really hate the terms "conservative" and "liberal" being used in reference to the church. They have so much baggage attached to them. And who decides what is liberal and what is conservative? As a member of an A/G church, I would be called liberal by someone who is fundamentalist Baptist. But to my friends who do not go to church at all, I am conservative. I refuse to be confined by labels. I am a follower of Jesus, and that is all that matters in the long run!

 

[Andyman_1970]

Read the book "Ten Lies the Church Tells Women" by J. Lee Grady. He has taken the time to research and exegete the verses that are quoted and used against women being in ministry. What he finds is really surprising.

I'm not against (and I believe the Scriptures are not against) women in ministry. I do believe the Scriptures give us guidelines as to who should do what in the context of a church bodt.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled thread............

Back on topic...I really hate the terms "conservative" and "liberal" being used in reference to the church. They have so much baggage attached to them.

I agree. Many at my fundamentalist Baptist church would call me a "liberal" if they listened to how I teach.

And who decides what is liberal and what is conservative? As a member of an A/G church, I would be called liberal by someone who is fundamentalist Baptist. But to my friends who do not go to church at all, I am conservative.

That was my point exactly. Some think church "A" is liberal because they have done this or that, but church "A" may look at itself and think they are conservative.

I agree the whole conservative / liberal thing is a little arbitrary.

 

[kidsminister]

I agree the whole conservative / liberal thing is a little arbitrary.

Not to mention divisive! Especially during an election year .

 

[Jim B]

I think the term 'liberal' needs to be defined for the purposes of this discussion
...
So I don't get too wound up about many of the issues 'conservatives' get wound up about. For example (and to quote Andyman, 'not to open up a can of worms'), I don't have an issue with wine. Or marijuana (!! that should raise some eyebrows!!). I'll leave with two Scriptures:

"...for whatever is not of faith, is sin."
"Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

Then you do not mean theologically liberal. You mean that you don't take a legalistic (i.e., strict legal adherence to scriptures and proof-texts) approach to your faith. You are justified (Rom. 3.28) and remain justified (Rom. 1.17) by grace through faith in God, not by reliance on your own works.

Personally, I do not like wine (yuk!) but a cold Guinness every now and then is nice.

\o/

Oh, And I do shoot up some heroin ever now and then. (just kidding!)

 

[Andry]

Then you do not mean theologically liberal. You mean that you don't take a legalistic (i.e., strict legal adherence to scriptures and proof-texts) approach to your faith. You are justified (Rom. 3.28) and remain justified (Rom. 1.17) by grace through faith in God, not by reliance on your own works.

Personally, I do not like wine (yuk!) but a cold Guinness every now and then is nice.

\o/

Oh, And I do shoot up some heroin ever now and then. (just kidding!)

LOL. Jim, thank you, I stand corrected. And I'm with you on the Guiness.

Personally, it more than about 'doing the right thing'. It gets deeper than that. If my understanding of the Bible is correct, it's more than about choosing right and wrong. It's about choosing life and death. I teach my family that just because it's 'right' doesn't mean it brings life. So if it doesn't bring life, why do it (even though it may be 'right', a right, or a liberty)? As someone posted earlier from 1 Cor 10 - 23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are beneficial. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. And Deut 30 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live."

So my focus is not only 'right and wrong' but life and death, ie. choosing life.

 

[Svt4Him]

Ah, just ignore this...

 

[Perceivence]

>_<

Is smoking marijuana still illegal in Canada, andry?

 

[Andry]

Perceivence,

Yes, smoking marijuana is still illegal. My point was, alcohol is legal. Which does more damage to society? So what constitutes "legal" is inconsistent. Something to remember though, legality and morality don't necessarily complement one another.

Just so everyone doesn't get the wrong impression from an earlier post, I do NOT smoke marijuana!