the changing speed of light. dad, this thread is for you

NailsII said:

To be fair, I consider myself an educated man but maths and physics tend to leave me left behind big time.

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I'll be equally honest. I'm a chemist and I work daily in a field that is made possible because of quantum. I only have a tiny amount of understanding of the simplest stuff in it.

So I don't blame dad for not getting the maths picture;

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I wouldn't either, except he's rude and condescending to those who do understand other subjects.

If he weren't so obnoxious about it it would be very interesting to talk about. But he sets the tone with his snarky commentary, and I'm more than happy to take him on in kind.

it is just unfortunate that he tried to fudge his way through it nstead of admitting his limitations.
We all have them, after all.

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This is very true. But you'll note Dad never to my knowledge admits anything that would count against him. When he does admit he isn't an expert on something it is usually done after he's slagged that field and then he'll dismiss it as not important and that's explanation enough to excuse him.

But he never apologises for calling my field (geochemistry) "doo doo". Or calling math he doesn't understand "baby math".

But just look at how quickly he gets bent outta shape when someone say something even marginally "sacrilegious" to his beliefs.

He can definitely dish it out but he most assuredly can't take it.

Too bad its part of his holy book (Luke 6:31).

,,,

Now it's my turn to be fair.

What scientific paradigms are in place that show miracles to be anti-science? Since miracles have never been observed with today's technology, but have been reported --- in writing --- why isn't there some kind of method, machine, or something that can verify that this either happened, or didn't happen?

The Bible supplies you guys with names, places, dates, and events, and you can't do one blessed thing to verify this.

Well, that's too bad.

Until your big, bad machines, tools, and/or computer paradigms can do this:

[bible]2 Kings 6:17[/bible]

--- you can keep your junk "scientific" conclusions to yourself, as far as I'm concerned.

NailsII said:

Again, you complicate the picture by invoking the supernatural. Humans have a history of warfare, conquest and inflicting suffering - this is nothing to do with god, it is in our nature. Andjust because we have a history of it doesn't make it good, just or even right.
Ancient cultures are rife with gods that fill gaps, I hope you wouldn't push your own deity into said box - because it is getting smaller by the day.

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Our present nature, you mean. There is no reason to assume it was our created nature. In fact, we are told we changed, and fell. That did involve a spirit, the devil. That devil is known to be an enemy of man, and behind wars, and diseases, and all sorts of death. That is his due. Trying to imagine no spirits were involved, is merely a natural only minded deadness to certain realities beyond it's scope.

Now i actually agree with this sentance.
Our bodies would work much better if we looked after them, spent more time exercising than eating KFC would be a good start.
However, I find it strange that such a conclusion fits in better with evolutionary theory than with creationism.
Because if we were created we were created badly, if we evolved then we evolved with limitaions.

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Well, you agreed with something I never meant. I was not thinking of our bodies, that is a natural minded take, naturally.
I was referring to the brain, and the impulses we can or can not receive. If we look to God, and are born of the spirit, we can get some of the spiritual impulses. If not, and it remains deadened to the things of the spirit, it is not being used as it was meant to be.

Are you suggesting that 'free' neutrons hae an affinity for those bound up in atoms, and specifically those in biological systems?[/quote]
Well, the doors between the physical and spiritual are largely unknown. If the heavenly, spiritual state involves different forces and laws than this temporary state, such as the weak nuclear force, interactions are beyond our perception ability.
"The weak interaction affects all left-handed leptons and quarks. It is the only force affecting neutrinos"

1. It is the only interaction capable of changing flavour.
2. It is the only interaction which violates parity symmetry P (because it only acts on left-handed particles). It is also the only one which violates CP (CP Symmetry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_nuclear_force

"In particle physics, flavour or flavor (see spelling differences) is a quantum number of elementary particles related to their weak interactions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavour_(particle_physics)


The precise mechanics of the hand shaking with the spiritual is unknown. Some neutrinos arrive on earth every day from space.
"Most neutrinos passing through the Earth emanate from the sun, and more than 50 trillion solar electron neutrinos pass through the human body every second."
..in a phenomenon known as neutrino flavour oscillation, neutrinos are able to oscillate between the three available flavors while they propagate through space."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

If quantum interactions involved time travel, then we are interacting with the past and future, and their state, as well. If that state is spiritual also, it seems to me that it would be near this level, that an interaction must take place with the present universe physical state.

But, however they meet, the spiritual minded man can get his or her signals from above.

thaumaturgy said:

This is very true. But you'll note Dad never to my knowledge admits anything that would count against him. When he does admit he isn't an expert on something it is usually done after he's slagged that field and then he'll dismiss it as not important and that's explanation enough to excuse him.

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You don't have to be a rocket scientist to say we shouldn't waste billions on going to the moon. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to feel that we should not lobotomize people. You don't have to be a nuclear scientist to feel that we should not nuke cities.

But he never apologises for calling my field (geochemistry) "doo doo". Or calling math he doesn't understand "baby math".

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Compared to math that applies in the hereafter, our math is baby math. To get offended over that is childish.

But just look at how quickly he gets bent outta shape when someone say something even marginally "sacrilegious" to his beliefs.

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I don't get bent out of shape, I bend others out of shape.

He can definitely dish it out but he most assuredly can't take it.

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I suppose one could say that about playing tennis with a 6 year old, that can manage to serve the ball.

Too bad its part of his holy book (Luke 6:31).

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"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise"

If I was to teach evil demonic Godless myths to kids, and call it science,and offend their faith, I would expect God to hang a millstone on my neck, and cast me into the sea. For you to think that I would not at least point out the limitations, and falseness of such claims by such folks, is not what that verse means.
It means do to the wolves, what you would want done to you, if you were a wolf, attacking His sheep, basically. As well as the more sugary meaning, of being nice to others, as you would want them to be nice to you.

AV1611VET said:

Now it's my turn to be fair.

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So why not look at modern day miracles, like those that alow the creation of a new saint?
There have been some recently, most notaby mother theresa's timely intervention in one person's illness.
The medical evidence supplied to the vatican concluded that no miracle was needed, and this evidence was ignored.
Somehow, that comes as no suprise.

source:

test

dad said:

Our present nature, you mean. There is no reason to assume it was our created nature. In fact, we are told we changed, and fell. That did involve a spirit, the devil. That devil is known to be an enemy of man, and behind wars, and diseases, and all sorts of death. That is his due. Trying to imagine no spirits were involved, is merely a natural only minded deadness to certain realities beyond it's scope.

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And you have evidence that the devil was present in the garden of eden?
And I think you'll find that the devil has nothing to do with disease; man causes war (often in the name of his god) and it is in fact god who causes death, not the devil.
it's all in the book.....

dad said:

Well, you agreed with something I never meant. I was not thinking of our bodies, that is a natural minded take, naturally.
I was referring to the brain, and the impulses we can or can not receive. If we look to God, and are born of the spirit, we can get some of the spiritual impulses. If not, and it remains deadened to the things of the spirit, it is not being used as it was meant to be.

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So basically, you can detect some spiritual impulses that I can't.
And that makes me already dead in your eyes.
But just for your information, the brain doesn't receive impulses from outside, we have sense organs that convert external stimulii into neural impulses.
As far as I am aware, the brain doesn't react to any other stimulation under normal conditions.

dad said:

Well, the doors between the physical and spiritual are largely unknown. If the heavenly, spiritual state involves different forces and laws than this temporary state, such as the weak nuclear force, interactions are beyond our perception ability.

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You really are making this up.
These different states are purely imaginary, you have no evidence for them.
And why pick on the weak nuclear force? Is this god's private message channel or something?

dad said:

The precise mechanics of the hand shaking with the spiritual is unknown. Some neutrinos arrive on earth every day from space.
"Most neutrinos passing through the Earth emanate from the sun, and more than 50 trillion solar electron neutrinos pass through the human body every second."

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Exactly, they pass right through. They are high-energy particles and just continue on forever.
Funny how we started with neurons, and got side-tracked to neutrons and now we end up with neutrinos.
I will assume this to be a random derailment and of no consequence to the discussion.

dad said:

If quantum interactions involved time travel, then we are interacting with the past and future, and their state, as well. If that state is spiritual also, it seems to me that it would be near this level, that an interaction must take place with the present universe physical state.

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If - such a big starting point.
So many assumptions.
So few answers.
i wonder if you are trying to convince me (you are not) or yourself.

dad said:

But, however they meet, the spiritual minded man can get his or her signals from above.

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Just assuming you are correct, how do you know which come from above and which come from below?
Which are from heaven and which are just random fluctuations in space-time?

AV1611VET said:

Now it's my turn to be fair.

What scientific paradigms are in place that show miracles to be anti-science? Since miracles have never been observed with today's technology, but have been reported --- in writing --- why isn't there some kind of method, machine, or something that can verify that this either happened, or didn't happen?

The Bible supplies you guys with names, places, dates, and events, and you can't do one blessed thing to verify this.

Well, that's too bad.

Until your big, bad machines, tools, and/or computer paradigms can do this:

[bible]2 Kings 6:17[/bible]

--- you can keep your junk "scientific" conclusions to yourself, as far as I'm concerned.

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Does this mean you are going to give up modern medicine? I would love for you to volunteer to be an Amputee of God.

Here is how it goes. You let me cut off your arm, and you pray to God (the other me btw) and we shale see if your arm regenerates and grows back. How strong is your faith btw....

dad said:

If I was to teach evil demonic Godless myths to kids, and call it science,and offend their faith, I would expect God to hang a millstone on my neck, and cast me into the sea. For you to think that I would not at least point out the limitations, and falseness of such claims by such folks, is not what that verse means.
It means do to the wolves, what you would want done to you, if you were a wolf, attacking His sheep, basically. As well as the more sugary meaning, of being nice to others, as you would want them to be nice to you.

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And comments like this really should not be allowed.
It displays bigotry and ignorance of the highest level.
Science is not evil, or demonic, but good science is godless.
Atheism is not evil, nor should it ever be labelled as such.
Not when you have preachers who stand on a stage and fleece the desperate of their money in the name of jesus, saints like mother teressa who spent her whole life watching people suffer and die (without medication or treatment) and a president who claims that god told him to go to war with Iraq.
I think you should look amongst your own faith-group before labelling others as evil.

Godless science produced the computer you type on, the TV you watch and put up the satellites for your sat-nav and your god-channel to be blasted all over christendom.
So don't complain about preaching to kids, when that is the very life-blood of faith. If it offends your faith then that's tough, in the same way that your faith offends other faiths.
Funny how faith rarely offends non-faith though isn't it. Doesn't that tell you something about the weakminded nature of your religion?

NailsII said:

And comments like this really should not be allowed.
It displays bigotry and ignorance of the highest level.
Science is not evil, or demonic, but good science is godless.

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Godless is the epitome and essence of evil. Abraham was counted worthy because, why, he did good works? No. He simply believed. It is not by works. It is against the godless myths, and principalities, and things that exalt themselves before God, and oppose God, that are bigotry and ignorance of the highest level.
The same past myth is so called science, and only falsely so called, nothing to do with science, get off the biscuit.

Atheism is not evil, nor should it ever be labelled as such.

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Says you, and it should never be labeled righteousness. Any more than poverty should be declared wealth.

Not when you have preachers who stand on a stage and fleece the desperate of their money in the name of jesus, saints like mother teressa who spent her whole life watching people suffer and die (without medication or treatment) and a president who claims that god told him to go to war with Iraq.

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I don't have that. You do, in the case of the warmongers. If you accept a thin veneer of religion as a reason for it, you are to blame, not me.
As for Mother Theresa, she did what she could. Her goal was to pick up the rejects of this loveless wicked world, and give them a ray of love and hope at the end of their journey. It was not a mandate to dope them up, and stick them on life support, in some sort of grotesque comatose state, in the name of so called chivalry. If you cared a whit, or other would be do gooders, maybe you would have been there passing out the drugs. She passed out the love of God, to the unloved, as best she could. To suggest she liked people suffering is ghoulishly morbid, and diabolical.

I think you should look amongst your own faith-group before labelling others as evil.

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My faith is in Christ, and they are all saved. God is working on them, so if you want to pretend they are supposed to have arrived at some extra human perfection, you are on your own there. You do not share God's idea of what good and bad is, so you best preach your little morals to the heathen, where they might think it applies!

Godless science produced the computer you type on, the TV you watch and put up the satellites for your sat-nav and your god-channel to be blasted all over christendom.

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God allowed it, so so Christ could be blasted in all the earth! And it matters not to the false claims of so called science, the stuff is here, not in their morbid dream state myth! So called science never did squat. Inspired men did plenty.

So don't complain about preaching to kids, when that is the very life-blood of faith. If it offends your faith then that's tough, in the same way that your faith offends other faiths.

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I don't like the kids being offended, and apparently God really really hates it. When the stuff comes down soon, you need not wonder why. I am sure Rome thought it was clever, or Babylon, or Israel, or Egypt, etc etc etc. They didn't count more than the dust on weigh scales, any more than any modern evil nations.

Funny how faith rarely offends non-faith though isn't it. Doesn't that tell you something about the weakminded nature of your religion?

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Yes, you can't shoot a dead duck!

]

NailsII said:

And you have evidence that the devil was present in the garden of eden?

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You have any evidence there was a garden, or that the devil wasn't there? If not, I'll take the word of someone that was there, Jesus. he said the devil is a liar, and a murderer, and was a liar from the beginning.

And I think you'll find that the devil has nothing to do with disease; man causes war (often in the name of his god) and it is in fact god who causes death, not the devil.
it's all in the book.....

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You think, do you? Well, it takes just a little more than that to translate into reality.

So basically, you can detect some spiritual impulses that I can't.
And that makes me already dead in your eyes.

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No, Jesus said we must be born of the spirit. That is how we know.

But just for your information, the brain doesn't receive impulses from outside, we have sense organs that convert external stimulii into neural impulses.
As far as I am aware, the brain doesn't react to any other stimulation under normal conditions.

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Of course it does, ever watched a movie? Or looked at a computer screen? Radio? We get input to the brain 6 ways from Sunday. get a grip, man.

You really are making this up.
These different states are purely imaginary, you have no evidence for them.
And why pick on the weak nuclear force? Is this god's private message channel or something?

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I gave it a little mentch, because it is involved in affecting some things, that are involved in cells.

Exactly, they pass right through. They are high-energy particles and just continue on forever.
Funny how we started with neurons, and got side-tracked to neutrons and now we end up with neutrinos.

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Funny how cells and physical things are composed of stuff. Funny how small stuff is covered by quantum level mechanics. Funny how the brain gets impulses, and input.

I will assume this to be a random derailment and of no consequence to the discussion.
If - such a big starting point.
So many assumptions.
So few answers.
i wonder if you are trying to convince me (you are not) or yourself.

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Depends on what you are talking about. From this post, I have no idea. None
At all.
Deal with it.
Get it?

Just assuming you are correct, how do you know which come from above and which come from below?
Which are from heaven and which are just random fluctuations in space-time?

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Well, it is a bit like the little kid that was asked how they know if a little voice they hear is God, or the devil. The reply was, 'that's easy, if it tells me to do something good, it's God, if it tells me to do something bad, it's the devil'.
And that is why He gave man a book. We can just look it up, if we are in doubt. Piece of cake.

You think, do you? Well, it takes just a little more than that to translate into reality.

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dad, you of all people should be wary of throwing this charge around. So far, not one post, not one, that you've EVER put up has demonstrated anything more than insane conjecture about the "schism" that occurred at some undefinable point in the past.

Of course it does, ever watched a movie? Or looked at a computer screen? Radio? We get input to the brain 6 ways from Sunday. get a grip, man.

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I highly suggest you study how the brain actually works. The brain receives neural input from the sensory organs. It does not receive input directly from any outside source.

Funny how cells and physical things are composed of stuff. Funny how small stuff is covered by quantum level mechanics. Funny how the brain gets impulses, and input.

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The worst part about this charge is that you have no idea what you are talking about. Really, none. Neutrinos pass straight through causing no effect upon anything that they pass through. Just because there is something called "Quantum Theory" doesn't mean you can chalk up spiritual happenings to some made up "quantum interactions".

dad said:

Godless is the epitome and essence of evil. Abraham was counted worthy because, why, he did good works? No. He simply believed. It is not by works. It is against the godless myths, and principalities, and things that exalt themselves before God, and oppose God, that are bigotry and ignorance of the highest level.
The same past myth is so called science, and only falsely so called, nothing to do with science, get off the biscuit.

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If you have any evidence that godless people commit more immoral or evil acts than christians, you might have a point. But as we both know, this is not the case, and if anything the opposite is more likely to be true.
And the logical falacy of repent and accept to enter heaven is so shallow I'm suprised anyone has bought it.
So if this means that child rapists and murderers are in heaven because they repented, I'm glad I'm not going there.
By the way, if rejecting the bible makes me ignorant then I will wallow in my ignorance and continue to delude myself with hard evidence.

dad said:

Says you, and it should never be labeled righteousness. Any more than poverty should be declared wealth.

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Righteousness is such a condesending title anyway, I'm glad it doesn't aply to me.
I may be poor, I may have to work hard to pay my mortgage but I have a happy, healthy family and that makes me among one of the richest people on earth - especially as our health is granted not by the grace of the all-powerful sky-god, but by modern medical knowledge based on...... godless scientific enquiry and evolutionary theory.
So, when was the last time someone you knew was healed by the bible, or innoculated against a nasty childhood disease by prayer?

dad said:

I don't have that. You do, in the case of the warmongers. If you accept a thin veneer of religion as a reason for it, you are to blame, not me.
As for Mother Theresa, she did what she could. Her goal was to pick up the rejects of this loveless wicked world, and give them a ray of love and hope at the end of their journey. It was not a mandate to dope them up, and stick them on life support, in some sort of grotesque comatose state, in the name of so called chivalry. If you cared a whit, or other would be do gooders, maybe you would have been there passing out the drugs. She passed out the love of God, to the unloved, as best she could. To suggest she liked people suffering is ghoulishly morbid, and diabolical.

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It is not a thin veneer, it is the reality of all that is around you.
And just to keeo you informed, mother Theresa rejected the use of modern medicine in favour of good old-fashioned pain and suffering, biblical style.
So saintly, don't you think?

dad said:

My faith is in Christ, and they are all saved. God is working on them, so if you want to pretend they are supposed to have arrived at some extra human perfection, you are on your own there. You do not share God's idea of what good and bad is, so you best preach your little morals to the heathen, where they might think it applies!

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Strange that my lmorals are little but yours are so important; yet we have already seen how similar they are. I wonder how that could be?
And, like I have already said, if your god's idea of good is to allow the scum of the earth into heaven because they say sorry on their deathbed then no, I don't agree with it.

dad said:

God allowed it, so so Christ could be blasted in all the earth! And it matters not to the false claims of so called science, the stuff is here, not in their morbid dream state myth! So called science never did squat. Inspired men did plenty.

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If that was true, then science channels must be the work of the devil and shot down, right?
And I'm sorry that you don't find science inspiring, because I think you'll find it has inspired the godless as well as the god-filled to do more good than religion can ever dream of.
But this is a double edged sword as we all know, and science has also provided the technology to do much harm, and cause much suffering.
Such is the minds of men.

dad said:

I don't like the kids being offended, and apparently God really really hates it. When the stuff comes down soon, you need not wonder why. I am sure Rome thought it was clever, or Babylon, or Israel, or Egypt, etc etc etc. They didn't count more than the dust on weigh scales, any more than any modern evil nations.

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But to Allah's followers, we are the evil nations.
Especially as Geaorge W Bush asked god for approval over the iraq invasion.....

dad said:

Yes, you can't shoot a dead duck!

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Build up that wall Mr. Jefferson...

dad said:

You have any evidence there was a garden, or that the devil wasn't there? If not, I'll take the word of someone that was there, Jesus. he said the devil is a liar, and a murderer, and was a liar from the beginning.

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But in your great book, I only see god doing the lying and murdering.
He lied about how the universe was created and in what order, he lied about eating forbiden fruits, and he lied snakes losing their legs - all in the first few pages.
How many more lies are there?
Lest we forget Jesus meek and mild, who declared that the slave who doesn't wait up all night for his drunken master to return home should be slain.
And you think the devil is bad?
Don't make me laugh and read it again.

dad said:

You think, do you? Well, it takes just a little more than that to translate into reality.

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Elequently put. None of the bible translates into reality, it is fiction.
But you still havn't explained why god does the lying and murdering.

dad said:

No, Jesus said we must be born of the spirit. That is how we know.

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Jesus also said that adultery is OK, but we both know that that particluar story was added later, don't we.

dad said:

Of course it does, ever watched a movie? Or looked at a computer screen? Radio? We get input to the brain 6 ways from Sunday. get a grip, man.

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Exactly as I said my dear friend, your brain requires organs to provide a translation. It doesn't respond to light or touch (becuase, beleieve it or not your brain has no capacity to feel anything - that's why you can have surgery on your brain under a local anasthetic) but requires eyes and photsensitive cells that react to light etc etc.
Once again you have shown your ignorance on matters which occur in the real world, and are notably absent from your myth-based religion.

dad said:

I gave it a little mentch, because it is involved in affecting some things, that are involved in cells.

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Evidence please.
Apart from the obvious, because the weak nuclear force is observed in interactions between atoms and molecules. Remember, this particular line started to explain how god enters your thoughts, and all you have done is lied and tried to disguise the lies with scientific sounding words.

dad said:

Funny how cells and physical things are composed of stuff. Funny how small stuff is covered by quantum level mechanics. Funny how the brain gets impulses, and input.

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But not from neutrinos.

dad said:

Depends on what you are talking about. From this post, I have no idea. None
At all.
Deal with it.
Get it?

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So you were just making things up then.
Thought so.

dad said:

Well, it is a bit like the little kid that was asked how they know if a little voice they hear is God, or the devil. The reply was, 'that's easy, if it tells me to do something good, it's God, if it tells me to do something bad, it's the devil'.
And that is why He gave man a book. We can just look it up, if we are in doubt. Piece of cake.

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Of course, I forgot the bit in the bible where god tells us how to vaccinate against childhood diseases or create antibiotics to cure fatal infections.
silly me, I'm sure you'll provide me a reference.
And it really is amazing how easily children are brainwashed, isn't it?
But there is a sound evolutionary explaination for this; as obediant children are more likely to survive and reproduce than those who don't listen to their parents when they say things lie "stay away from that cliff" or "don't poke the crocodile".

Parmenio said:

dad, you of all people should be wary of throwing this charge around. So far, not one post, not one, that you've EVER put up has demonstrated anything more than insane conjecture about the "schism" that occurred at some undefinable point in the past.

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The bible happens to be a little more than thinking. I am not wary of pointing out obvious real limitations of man's abilities and knowledge.

I highly suggest you study how the brain actually works. The brain receives neural input from the sensory organs. It does not receive input directly from any outside source.

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How would you know how the brain works during inspiration???? Stick to what you know.

The worst part about this charge is that you have no idea what you are talking about. Really, none. Neutrinos pass straight through causing no effect upon anything that they pass through.

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This we know, because, .... .... ? They pass through physical things?? Besides, who cares what they do? They are an example of things passing through the world of man, that we don't generally see.

Just because there is something called "Quantum Theory" doesn't mean you can chalk up spiritual happenings to some made up "quantum interactions".

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No, try and stop me. If the past and future are involved, I cam waltz all over anything you try to throw up as known.

NailsII said:

If you have any evidence that godless people commit more immoral or evil acts than christians, you might have a point.

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Doesn't matter a bit! We are not perfect, but saved wicked men. Better than damned wicked men.

But as we both know, this is not the case, and if anything the opposite is more likely to be true.

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Nope, we at least are making baby steps on the way! Any miscomprehension there is likely due to your having no real knowledge of what is really good and evil!!!!!!!!!

And the logical falacy of repent and accept to enter heaven is so shallow I'm suprised anyone has bought it.

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I think that the believers were the ones told to repent, no? All we need for heaven, that I am aware is belief in Jesus, which inspires some repenting.

So if this means that child rapists and murderers are in heaven because they repented, I'm glad I'm not going there.

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If they believe, they go. If they believe they will not dream of doing the things you speak of. If some are forgiven for crimes, rejoice, you are a depraved man yourself.

By the way, if rejecting the bible makes me ignorant then I will wallow in my ignorance and continue to delude myself with hard evidence.

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So hard it is only in your head, apparently.

Righteousness is such a condesending title anyway, I'm glad it doesn't aply to me.

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It is the blood of Jesus that was spilled, and only Him that makes us righteous before the Father. Not your own stinking works, or mine.

I may be poor, I may have to work hard to pay my mortgage but I have a happy, healthy family and that makes me among one of the richest people on earth - especially as our health is granted not by the grace of the all-powerful sky-god, but by modern medical knowledge based on...... godless scientific enquiry and evolutionary theory.

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Shall we all bow our heads now?

So, when was the last time someone you knew was healed by the bible, or innoculated against a nasty childhood disease by prayer?

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Today.

It is not a thin veneer, it is the reality of all that is around you.
And just to keeo you informed, mother Theresa rejected the use of modern medicine in favour of good old-fashioned pain and suffering, biblical style.
So saintly, don't you think?

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Evidence for that???

Strange that my lmorals are little but yours are so important; yet we have already seen how similar they are. I wonder how that could be?
And, like I have already said, if your god's idea of good is to allow the scum of the earth into heaven because they say sorry on their deathbed then no, I don't agree with it.

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Tough. Far as I know there are not many deathbed salvations. But if the odd thief on the cross is sorry, I can dig it.

If that was true, then science channels must be the work of the devil and shot down, right?

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If they talk of Godless lies, their time is limited.

And I'm sorry that you don't find science inspiring, because I think you'll find it has inspired the godless as well as the god-filled to do more good than religion can ever dream of.

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You think wrong. Science has nothing at all to do with your pagan same state past myth.

But this is a double edged sword as we all know, and science has also provided the technology to do much harm, and cause much suffering.
Such is the minds of men.

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Such is the knowledge of good and evil.

But to Allah's followers, we are the evil nations.

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They are right, but so are they.

Especially as Geaorge W Bush asked god for approval over the iraq invasion.....

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He never got it though! Didn't seem to stop him. Guess he couldn't really care less. Dig a little deeper, man.

dad said:

This we know, because, .... .... ? They pass through physical things?? Besides, who cares what they do? They are an example of things passing through the world of man, that we don't generally see.

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Pretty much. It's something on the order of 10^11 neutrinos per square centimeter per second. You don't notice them because they only interact via gravity (which is neglectable for particles of such small mass) and the weak force. We can use the detected neutrino flux as a method of observing far away stars or the core of our own sun, because very little affects the neutrinos.

NailsII said:

But in your great book, I only see god doing the lying and murdering.

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You don't see too deep.

He lied about how the universe was created and in what order, he lied about eating forbiden fruits, and he lied snakes losing their legs - all in the first few pages.

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Nope, Gen 1 is the order. Count on it. The serpent, by the way was not a snake with legs, far as I know. That simply denotes the limited change POers imagine that the creature actually underwent.

How many more lies are there?
Lest we forget Jesus meek and mild, who declared that the slave who doesn't wait up all night for his drunken master to return home should be slain.

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Reference?

And you think the devil is bad?
Don't make me laugh and read it again.

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Read what again?

Elequently put. None of the bible translates into reality, it is fiction.
But you still havn't explained why god does the lying and murdering.

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I thought it was men that murdered the martyrs? And Jesus? And attacked His people? God is not the liar.

Jesus also said that adultery is OK, but we both know that that particluar story was added later, don't we.

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No, we don't. Adultery is not OK.

Exactly as I said my dear friend, your brain requires organs to provide a translation. It doesn't respond to light or touch (becuase, beleieve it or not your brain has no capacity to feel anything - that's why you can have surgery on your brain under a local anasthetic) but requires eyes and photsensitive cells that react to light etc etc.
Once again you have shown your ignorance on matters which occur in the real world, and are notably absent from your myth-based religion.

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The brain receives input. Man gets input from the ears and eyes. Light and sound do influence our thoughts.

Evidence please.

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Look at the post where it mentions that cells are made of this, and this is made of that, and that includes the other.

Apart from the obvious, because the weak nuclear force is observed in interactions between atoms and molecules. Remember, this particular line started to explain how god enters your thoughts, and all you have done is lied and tried to disguise the lies with scientific sounding words.

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The present fundamental forces of this universe affect how the physical body, and brain respond to interactions with things physical, and with things spiritual. Various inputs affecting our thoughts, work a certain way, using the physical mechanics in place. The physical is affected by the spiritual, and as we approach the atomic and quantum levels, there is interaction there. Our current understanding is not at the depth where it can grasp things as anything but physical. So it defines all in those terms. But not from a standpoint of knowledge. But limitations, stemming from ignorance.

But not from neutrinos.

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Maybe not. But I wonder if you are qualified to speak to what the spiritual really can affect? And if something was affected, spiritually, how would you detect it??

Of course, I forgot the bit in the bible where god tells us how to vaccinate against childhood diseases or create antibiotics to cure fatal infections.

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That doesn't tell us what is good and evil. Antibiotics are starting to fail, new diseases come to exist, and vaccinations are seen as something to be avoided by millions.

silly me, I'm sure you'll provide me a reference.
And it really is amazing how easily children are brainwashed, isn't it?
But there is a sound evolutionary explaination for this; as obediant children are more likely to survive and reproduce than those who don't listen to their parents when they say things lie "stay away from that cliff" or "don't poke the crocodile".

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There is more to good and evil than self preservation, and dog eat dog, kill the less fit animal doctrines of devils.

Adivi said:

Pretty much. It's something on the order of 10^11 neutrinos per square centimeter per second. You don't notice them because they only interact via gravity (which is neglectable for particles of such small mass) and the weak force. We can use the detected neutrino flux as a method of observing far away stars or the core of our own sun, because very little affects the neutrinos.

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Right, and we assume that they travel a certain speed. I guess we also assume that the weak force was here for a long while!