The Catch 22 of Struggling With One's Sexuality

Jase said:

Do you consider your holier-than-thou attitude to be "loving your neighbor"? Your self-righteousness isn't for the good of others, it's only for yourself.

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I'm sorry. Are you addressing something, or are you also becoming holier than thou?

Look. I'm not put off from folks thinking I have a holier than thou attitude. I have a God is HOLY and always right attitude that doesn't allow room for false doctrine or false teaching.

You aren't a Saint.

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According to God's Word, I am.

Zaac said:

According to God's Word, I am (a saint).

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Well then, according to God's word, so am I, Zaac. So what do you have to say about that? I really feel that I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to counter some of your rather arrogant and self-righteous statements. I really feel that I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to question your use of the scriptures that seem to be at odds with your actual heart condition. I also feel that Jesus would do the very same as long as such remarks were discriminatory, cruel, or condemning to others. And, they are. I'm talking about the attitude of yourself and others toward homosexual-oriented people who are no less 'treasures of God' than you and they are.

Leave them alone, Zaac, and expend the energy you normally use to condemn homosexually-oriented people - who might also desire a meaningful and committed sexual life - by helping the poor, the needy, the sick, and those in prison. Surely some of these 'very least of your brethren' exist in your area ...?

KCKID said:

Well then, according to God's word, so am I, Zaac. So what do you have to say about that? I really feel that I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to counter some of your rather arrogant and self-righteous statements. I really feel that I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to question your use of the scriptures that seem to be at odds with your actual heart condition. I also feel that Jesus would do the very same as long as such remarks were discriminatory, cruel, or condemning to others. And, they are. I'm talking about the attitude of yourself and others toward homosexual-oriented people who are no less 'treasures of God' than you and they are.

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Funny. You would have to be equating me calling that which God calls sin sin as discriminatory, cruel and condemning.

So you go ahead and feel like the Holy Spirit is telling ya something. I'm gonna keep preaching the Word of God whether or not YOU feel something. I'm called to be pleasing to Christ FIRST, not to liberals who want people to feel good about sin.

Leave them alone, Zaac, and expend the energy you normally use to condemn homosexually-oriented people - who might also desire a meaningful and committed sexual life - by helping the poor, the needy, the sick, and those in prison. Surely some of these 'very least of your brethren' exist in your area ...?

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How about you not worry about what I do? If God has called me to speak His truth into the face of lies that this sin is still sin, what business is it of yours?

I'm versatile. By the power of God, I can preach the Gospel , help the poor, the needy , the widows and the orphans and not skip a beat.

Zaac said:

Funny. You would have to be equating me calling that which God calls sin sin as discriminatory, cruel and condemning.

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God does not tell ME that homosexuality is a sin, Zaac. I shared a great deal of time with a homosexual friend who prayed to God to 'change' him. God remained silent on the issue and I (and, hopefully, so too my friend) eventually had to concede that my friend was fine 'as is' with God. So, keep your condemning scriptures away from people such as my friend.

Zaac said:

So you go ahead and feel like the Holy Spirit is telling ya something. I'm gonna keep preaching the Word of God whether or not YOU feel something. I'm called to be pleasing to Christ FIRST, not to liberals who want people to feel good about sin.

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I don't think you fully know what the word of God is, Zaac.

Zaac said:

How about you not worry about what I do? If God has called me to speak His truth into the face of lies that this sin is still sin, what business is it of yours?

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The problem is that YOU claim to speak for God. But, at the end of the day you're STILL sinful ol' Zaac ...just like the rest of us.

Zaac said:

I'm versatile. By the power of God, I can preach the Gospel , help the poor, the needy , the widows and the orphans and not skip a beat.

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If you do these things, then good for you.

KCKID said:

God does not tell ME that homosexuality is a sin, Zaac.

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I didn't either.

I shared a great deal of time with a homosexual friend who prayed to God to 'change' him. God remained silent on the issue and I (and, hopefully, so too my friend) eventually had to concede that my friend was fine 'as is' with God. So, keep your condemning scriptures away from people such as my friend.

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If your friend is in need of setting free, I'm gonna share the Truth of God's Word with him. You get no say so.

I don't think you fully know what the word of God is, Zaac.

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You can think whatever you choose to.

The problem is that YOU claim to speak for God.

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That's what He left us here for. The Word of God says 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age Matthew 28:19-20

If we weren't going and speaking God's Word, we wouldn't be fulfilling the Great Commission. I prefer to live a life in obedience to what God has commanded. If you don't want to, don't.

But, at the end of the day you're STILL sinful ol' Zaac ...just like the rest of us.

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I never said otherwise. God's Word doesn't say that I have to be free of sin to righteously judge.

If you do these things, then good for you.

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All for the glory of God.

Jase said:

"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

By judging others Zaac, you are casting stones at them. Are you without sin?

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Read the context of the Scripture. They were planning on stoning the lady because she had sinned. Christ said for the one of them who had not sinned to cast the first stone.

That's not a prohibition against judging either. It's yet another lesson about HOW they SHOULD be judging.

They wanted to take her life because she had sinned. And Christ in His statement made clear that unless they were gonna be non-hypocritical and take their own lives for their just as sinful sin, then they couldn't RIGHTEOUSLY demand her life because of her sin.

So can I demand the life of another because they have sinned? Nope because I too am a sinner. That's RIGHTEOUS judgment.

Can I pass RIGHTEOUS judgment against someone's sin if I'm not committing the same sin? Yep because that is called RIGHTEOUS judgment.

KCKID said:

Would you say that you're a Bible fanatic, Zaac?

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"Fanatic" is rather a strong term. Zaac is as I observe him to be more of a "Biblical Literalist" or "Legalist" but like all the others, he is a highly selective one.

Zaac said:

Read the context of the Scripture. They were planning on stoning the lady because she had sinned. Christ said for the one of them who had not sinned to cast the first stone.

That's not a prohibition against judging either. It's yet another lesson about HOW they SHOULD be judging.

They wanted to take her life because she had sinned. And Christ in His statement made clear that unless they were gonna be non-hypocritical and take their own lives for their just as sinful sin, then they couldn't RIGHTEOUSLY demand her life because of her sin.

So can I demand the life of another because they have sinned? Nope because I too am a sinner. That's RIGHTEOUS judgment.

Can I pass RIGHTEOUS judgment against someone's sin if I'm not committing the same sin? Yep because that is called RIGHTEOUS judgment.

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Well, now we're getting down to common ground. Because, you see, I agree with you that Matthew 7:1 is not prohibitory ("Thou shalt not...") but rather monitory ("Beware lest thou...as the evildoers do."). Its actual meaning is, more or less, "Be careful not to judge [unrighteously], lest you yourself be judged." And verse 2 spells it out: "Because, by whatever standard you use to judge by, you yourself will be judged, as well." The whole "motes and beams" (dust specks and heavy timbers, actually) metaphor spells this out -- until you eliminate sin from your own life, you are not fit to judge the sins of another. Notice that that Ezekiel passage about blood being on one's hands says to warn, not to judge.

Now, Zaac, you are saying that if you do not commit sin X, you are fit to judge righteously about sin X. But this is not in accord with Romans. All men have sinned, no man is righteous -- and no man can make himself righteous before God. True, the saints are ascribed as righteousness, but the righteousness with which they are ascribed is not their own but that of Jesus Christ, granted them by the grace of God through His Atonement. That's a big and important part of Paul's teaching that you have seemed to gloss over.

Now, do we even have an example of righteousness in the New Testament to aspire to? Sure: Jesus Himself. "Have this mind in you which was also in Christ Jesus...." (Philippians 2:5-11) And what does He do. He doesn't decry sin, He doesn't condone sin, He forgives sin. His words to the adulteress in John 8, no matter how you twist it, are not "You're an #$#%@ sinner, but I'll let you off this time" but rather "I won't condemn you, either. Go, and try not to commit sins from now on." When people focus on that "Go, and sin no more" as if it means "Well, you were just sinning, but you got off on that charge, so don't do it again" without looking at the five words in front of it, "Neither do I condemn you," they're setting themselves up as more worthy than Jesus to condemn people. I don't need to say that that's a HUGE mistake.

I'm not preaching condoning sin. I'm preaching a Savior who loved us enough to die for us, and who taught of a loving Father who forgives and understands and welcomes. This bit of nailing down people's sins and demanding they get rid of the ones that society frowns on first before Jesus will have anything to do with them, that's dead wrong. "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance," he said. Especially because the sins which seemed to irk Him the most during his Earthly ministry were not the sins of the flesh that people focus on, but the sins of the spirit, of man against man, the Pharisees thinkiing their perfect keeping of the Law made them righteous in God's eyes and fit to judge sinners. If I can bring just one conservative Christian to see how close some of what is said by conservative evangelicals is to what Jesus berated the Pharisees for, then I've actually done some good here.

FactL You can't make yourself fit to appear before God. Fortunately, He doesn't expect you to. He's your loving Father, and He has arranged for you to be washed clean. Just stop fighting with the other kids in the tub!!

Zaac said:

I have a God is HOLY and always right attitude that doesn't allow room for false doctrine or false teaching.

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1. God is always right.

2. You aren't.

Which means that whatever you keep saying on here, there's the possibility that you're wrong.

Texas Lynn said:

"Fanatic" is rather a strong term. Zaac is as I observe him to be more of a "Biblical Literalist" or "Legalist" but like all the others, he is a highly selective one.

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I asked Zaac IF he was a Bible 'fanatic'. According to his response he evidently feels that being a Bible 'fanatic' is a compliment so I guess he accepts the term . . .

A very wise priest I once knew had on his office wall: