The Catch 22 of Struggling With One's Sexuality

[Jase]

As we have seen from this forum, those opposed to gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people (primarily those of fundamentalist or conservative upbringings) have attempted to show that God considers any action related to these orientations to be abominations and if continued leads one to hell. Such individuals are also most likely to consider suicide a sin punishable by eternal torment.

Studies have shown, that GLBT individuals are far more likely to attempt and commit suicide than their heterosexual counterparts. Primarily due to loneliness, depression, substance abuse, victimization, prejudice, violence, the inability to accept who they are, etc. Heterosexuals can't empathize or fathom the amount of psychological and emotional pain that struggling with one's sexuality can cause for those who can't accept it.

So we are left with a Catch 22. Being GLBT is a sin unless one lives a lonely, celibate life without any love or intimacy from another human being. And this of course leads to loneliness, depression, and suicide. But suicide is also a sin, and is forbidden.

So what are GLBTs to do? One poster suggested:

"Repent and believe the Gospel. Then quit being a pervert and either be celibate or marry someone of the opposite sex."

Despite the ignorance and hatred present in such a post, most struggling GLBT Christians can attest to the fact that praying for God to "fix" their sexuality doesn't work. For whatever reason ( either nonexistence/inability to do so, or unwillingness to do so), God has chosen not to change peoples' sexual orientation.

So what is one to do about such a catch 22? Either live in sin, because of something you were born with and can't change, or kill yourself and go to hell anyway.

Am I the only one who sees a glaring problem with this?

 

[D.W.Washburn]

You are not the only one who sees a problem with this.

And you left out the part where the one presenting the Catch-22 attributes it to motives of love.

 

[Polycarp1]

To be totally fair, most of the people who post seriously about homosexuality from the conservative-Christian perspective (as opposed to the drive-by witnessers against sin ) take the view that it's the act, not the orientation and desire, that constitutes sin. (It's worth noting that this is in contradiction to their readings of Romans 1:26-27.)

However, that distinction is lost in the decrying of "being gay is sin" from the self-styled "Christian" media. And it misses two points. Whenever someone self-identifies as gay, they're not talking about their active sex life, but about their orientation. First, this is something that is by near-unanimous testimony effectively unchangeable by oneself. And second, what they believe they are being told to do, aside from being for all practical purposes impossible for human beings of same-sex orientation, is not to enter into a promise of "a new life, and that more abundantly." It's a cold and sterile loveless life -- or else one founded on living a lie. Most of them have been there, done that -- and don't care to repeat the class.

While I differ from most on the 'pro-gay' side of these debates in believing that there are valid claims of being 'ex-gay', I think they're few and far between. The few I've heard and believe -- including one person active on CF -- have in common that God intervened in their lives andequipped them with the ability and strength to change. His doing, His grace, not their own. This is like insisting that anyone who's a "One True Christian (TM)" repent of not being able to move mountains by the sheer force of his own command -- which is equally scriptural (parable of Mustard Seed). If the Holy Spirit wants someone to stop being gay, He will empower them to do so. And if He doesn't, it's arrogance against God to demand they do the impossible before He will love and accept them.

Notice too that typically the people demanding that repentance have divided the Law, contrary to Jesus's own teaching, into three neat and unScriptural categories, two of which they set aside and make excuses for why people might do certain things in the one they do hold valid.

The idea of grace, compassion, and forgiveness to sinners -- which was paramount in Jesus's teaching -- seems to have escaped them, except for them paying lip service to "I was a sinner once." The idea that they too, just like the rest of us, fall short of deserving God's salvation, and have it only by His grace, His unmerited gift, seems to have escaped them. As have the repeated parables Jesus teaches with, with the point that just as God has been merciful and compassionate to us, who don't deserve it, so too are we to be merciful and compassionate to others.

The loving Father of whom Jesus taught has been turned by them into a wrathful tyrant, kind of Zeus the Thunderer with a Jewish accent. And they will leaf through the Bible to find examples of God's wrath to justify their claims. None of them ever stop to think that if anybody ought to know what God is like, it would be Jesus Christ.

To my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, I say, turn to Jesus Christ and follow Him. If He wants you to become heterosexual, He will make it very clear, through the Holy Spirit, and enable you to do so. If He wants you to live a celibate life, again He will impress that on you through the Holy Spirit. And if He does neither of these things, then enter into a committed marriage and rejoice in His love for you and your spouse, and let your lives together be blessed by Him.

Yes, I believe that God has permitted the present controversy over homosexuality as a test. But He is testing, by and large, is not so much the devotion and perseverance of gay Christians (though that's a part of it) as it is whether the rest of us are willing to obey the Gospel commands to love as we have been loved, to forgive as we have been forgiven, to show compassion as we have been shown it. And the self-styled "Real Christians" are IMO failing miserably at that test.

I

 

[Zaac]

Am I the only one who sees a glaring problem with this?

Yep. You're the only one.

As we have seen from this forum, those opposed to gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people (primarily those of fundamentalist or conservative upbringings) have attempted to show that God considers any action related to these orientations to be abominations and if continued leads one to hell. Such individuals are also most likely to consider suicide a sin punishable by eternal torment.

God treats all sin the same. Acts of homosexual sin are no different than acts of heterosexual sin.

Studies have shown, that GLBT individuals are far more likely to attempt and commit suicide than their heterosexual counterparts. Primarily due to loneliness, depression, substance abuse, victimization, prejudice, violence, the inability to accept who they are, etc.

Or maybe because of some chemical imbalance that results from said desires. Yes that was somewhat facetious. But seriously,how are those things any different from the reasons a lot of heterosexuals commit suicide?

Heterosexuals can't empathize or fathom the amount of psychological and emotional pain that struggling with one's sexuality can cause for those who can't accept it.

Why can't they? Many people struggle with many different things. Yall just need to stop thnking that sex makes your struggle special.

So we are left with a Catch 22. Being GLBT is a sin unless one lives a lonely, celibate life without any love or intimacy from another human being. And this of course leads to loneliness, depression, and suicide. But suicide is also a sin, and is forbidden.

How does being GLBT prevent you from living a life with love?

So what are GLBTs to do? One poster suggested:

"Repent and believe the Gospel. Then quit being a pervert and either be celibate or marry someone of the opposite sex."

Despite the ignorance and hatred present in such a post, most struggling GLBT Christians can attest to the fact that praying for God to "fix" their sexuality doesn't work. For whatever reason ( either nonexistence/inability to do so, or unwillingness to do so), God has chosen not to change peoples' sexual orientation.

Very few of them really want to change. Like so many on this board they don't think they are doing anything wrong. God an't gonna change nothing you ain't really ready to get rid of.

So what is one to do about such a catch 22? Either live in sin, because of something you were born with and can't change, or kill yourself and go to hell anyway.

One is to stop making excuses. Everybody has sin that they struggle with. Fornication by homosexuals is no different than fornication by heterosexuals.

 

[Jase]

Hmm, not many responses. I take it the anti-gay "Christian" crowd, doesn't have a whole lot of logical and coherent explanations for this paradox.

 

[Zaac]

As we have seen from this forum, those opposed to gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people (primarily those of fundamentalist or conservative upbringings) have attempted to show that God considers any action related to these orientations to be abominations and if continued leads one to hell.

Why do those in support of sin keep saying that those who aren't are opposed to GLBTs? The two are not the same.

Such individuals are also most likely to consider suicide a sin punishable by eternal torment.

Such individuals preach a God who forgives sin so that there's no need to commit suicide.

Studies have shown, that GLBT individuals are far more likely to attempt and commit suicide than their heterosexual counterparts. Primarily due to loneliness, depression, substance abuse, victimization, prejudice, violence, the inability to accept who they are, etc. Heterosexuals can't empathize or fathom the amount of psychological and emotional pain that struggling with one's sexuality can cause for those who can't accept it.

I don't know about the rest of Christendom, but my Bible tells me in Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

In other words, I know enough about what God expects of His Representatives here on Earth to know that this is a SPIRITUAL issue and not a psychological or emotional one. I know enough to know that it is the Word of GOD and the Mighty Counselor that sets men free, not a psychologist.

Christians are tasked to point those who don't know Christ to Him. And MY God gives His promise, which unlike sinful men He has never broken, in Psalm 55:22 to Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous fallso that He can shoulder their burdens.

I don't know of a psychologist who can make that promise.

So we are left with a Catch 22. Being GLBT is a sin unless one lives a lonely, celibate life without any love or intimacy from another human being. And this of course leads to loneliness, depression, and suicide. But suicide is also a sin, and is forbidden.

That's no Catch 22 any more than it is for any other sinner who wants to hang on to his sin, rather than laying it down and living a life pleasing to Christ.

How does a life in which a person is not fornicating equate to a life of no intimacy or love?

So what are GLBTs to do? One poster suggested:

Despite the ignorance and hatred present in such a post, most struggling GLBT Christians can attest to the fact that praying for God to "fix" their sexuality doesn't work. For whatever reason ( either nonexistence/inability to do so, or unwillingness to do so), God has chosen not to change peoples' sexual orientation.

Because the problem ain't the sexuality but the propensity of men and women to choose fornication over Christ.

Folks may or may not choose their orientations. I would venture that they probably don't. But I don't know of a single homosexual/heterosexual person who has ever lived who has not made the CHOICE to fornicate. That CHOICE has nothing to do with their sexuality.

So what is one to do about such a catch 22? Either live in sin, because of something you were born with and can't change, or kill yourself and go to hell anyway.

That's a cop out. If you don't get to sin the way you want, you kill yourself. That's precisely why people do go to hell is that they love their sin more than they love Christ.

Am I the only one who sees a glaring problem with this?

The glaring problem is that you want men to ATTEMPT to deal with that which Jesus Christ has ALREADY conquered.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Hmm, not many responses. I take it the anti-gay "Christian" crowd, doesn't have a whole lot of logical and coherent explanations for this paradox.

Prejudice is generally not rational.

 

[Zaac]

Prejudice is generally not rational.

Neither is choosing fornication over Christ.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Neither is choosing fornication over Christ.

Again with the fornication. I don't think there is necessarily any documentation that people necessarily do that specifically. Christ as portrayed in the gospels appeared to have greater empathy for various "fornicators" to use your term than he did for religious hypocrites.

But your point "fornication" is irrational has some validity. The anthropologist Helen Fisher noted prohibitions against adultery do not stop it and that is as she described it "the triumph of nature over culture".

 

[Jase]

Yep. You're the only one.

Regular guy clearly proves you wrong.

God treats all sin the same. Acts of homosexual sin are no different than acts of heterosexual sin.

And yet it's funny that the former is so much more focused on than the latter, despite that the latter is far more frequent.

Or maybe because of some chemical imbalance that results from said desires. Yes that was somewhat facetious. But seriously,how are those things any different from the reasons a lot of heterosexuals commit suicide?

Because it's far more frequent in the GLBT community, and heterosexuals aren't under as much stigma and discrimination from the rest of society.

Why can't they? Many people struggle with many different things. Yall just need to stop thnking that sex makes your struggle special.

Sexual orientation has nothing to do with sex.

How does being GLBT prevent you from living a life with love?

Because romantic relationships are considered a sin, so you are left with platonic relationships. Not quite the same thing.

Very few of them really want to change. Like so many on this board they don't think they are doing anything wrong. God an't gonna change nothing you ain't really ready to get rid of.

Total BS. Many Christians who struggle with this spent a large part of their life trying to change the way they were born through prayer or other methods. And they aren't doing anything wrong, as sexual orientation isn't a sin. God still doesn't fix the problem in those who genuinally can't accept the way they are.

One is to stop making excuses. Everybody has sin that they struggle with. Fornication by homosexuals is no different than fornication by heterosexuals.

Except fornication by heterosexuals has a cure - marriage. Do homosexuals have the same option?

 

[Jase]

Why do those in support of sin keep saying that those who aren't are opposed to GLBTs? The two are not the same.

Claiming those who are trying to fight for human rights as "supporting of sin" is a terribly ignorant statement.

Such individuals preach a God who forgives sin so that there's no need to commit suicide.

You mean, preaches a God who forgives a sin that can't be controlled or stopped? That would be like saying, God forgives those who sin by being blue-eyed or blonde. Not something you can do anything about. And even after forgiveness, the pain isn't removed, so the suicidal thoughts are still ever present.

In other words, I know enough about what God expects of His Representatives here on Earth to know that this is a SPIRITUAL issue and not a psychological or emotional one. I know enough to know that it is the Word of GOD and the Mighty Counselor that sets men free, not a psychologist.

Actually, it is an emotional issue. Again, what would you know? And if God is such a Mighty Counselor, why does he treat those people who suffer with such a hopeless issue? (And don't bring in the crap about not wanting to be changed again)

Christians are tasked to point those who don't know Christ to Him. And MY God gives His promise, which unlike sinful men He has never broken, in Psalm 55:22 to Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous fallso that He can shoulder their burdens.

And to what do you say to those who are righteous, do follow Christ, and yet are not sustained? They aren't "true Christians"?

I don't know of a psychologist who can make that promise.

At least one can see results with a psychologist.

That's no Catch 22 any more than it is for any other sinner who wants to hang on to his sin, rather than laying it down and living a life pleasing to Christ.

How many times do you have to be told that sexual orientation is not a sin? One can be tormented by their attractions without ever touching another human being.

How does a life in which a person is not fornicating equate to a life of no intimacy or love?

If marriage is illegal, how does a homosexual have intimacy without doing it outside of marriage?

Because the problem ain't the sexuality but the propensity of men and women to choose fornication over Christ.

If only you can grasp how horribly wrong you are. Again, one can be suicidal, depressed, lonely, etc. without ever touching another human being. Clearly fornication is not the issue, but as Texas Lynn points out, you seem to be a little obsessed.

Folks may or may not choose their orientations. I would venture that they probably don't. But I don't know of a single homosexual/heterosexual person who has ever lived who has not made the CHOICE to fornicate. That CHOICE has nothing to do with their sexuality.

There is no choice for anyone but heterosexuals. They can't get married and they can't have intimacy outside of marriage. Again, we are left with another catch 22. I really don't think you are grasping this Zaac, you're just being blindly preachy.

That's a cop out. If you don't get to sin the way you want, you kill yourself. That's precisely why people do go to hell is that they love their sin more than they love Christ.

Since you seem to know soooo much about other people's sins, and why they don't want to give them up, please tell me what sin I have committed that would lead me to suicide?

The glaring problem is that you want men to ATTEMPT to deal with that which Jesus Christ has ALREADY conquered.

Jesus has conquered one's struggle with their sexual orientation? Really?

 

[Zaac]

Regular guy clearly proves you wrong.



And yet it's funny that the former is so much more focused on than the latter, despite that the latter is far more frequent.



Because it's far more frequent in the GLBT community, and heterosexuals aren't under as much stigma and discrimination from the rest of society.



Sexual orientation has nothing to do with sex.



Because romantic relationships are considered a sin, so you are left with platonic relationships. Not quite the same thing.



Total BS. Many Christians who struggle with this spent a large part of their life trying to change the way they were born through prayer or other methods. And they aren't doing anything wrong, as sexual orientation isn't a sin. God still doesn't fix the problem in those who genuinally can't accept the way they are.




Except fornication by heterosexuals has a cure - marriage. Do homosexuals have the same option?

You've done nothing but make excuses for why folks should accept as nonsin that which GOD says is sin.

get over it.

People fornicate because they want to. Marriage doesn't cure fornication. Married people commit adultery because of a lack of discipline and a desire for sex over Christ just as unmarried people fornicate for the same reason.

 

[Zaac]

Claiming those who are trying to fight for human rights as "supporting of sin" is a terribly ignorant statement.

It's a terribly ignorant statement to think that hiding behind the guise of fighting for human rights is gonna fool anyone into thinking you're doing anything other than advocating sin.

You mean,

I didn't "mean" anything. I said what I intended to say.

preaches a God who forgives a sin that can't be controlled or stopped?

Scandalous. You must serve a mighty small God if He can't control or stop sin. Perhaps the problem is that folks are trying to control or stop the flesh in the flesh instead of letting God handle the desires.

That would be like saying, God forgives those who sin by being blue-eyed or blonde. Not something you can do anything about. And even after forgiveness, the pain isn't removed, so the suicidal thoughts are still ever present.

Again you ain't doing anything but making excuses for people's WRONG CHOICES.

Actually, it is an emotional issue.

And right here is why people do not get victory over sin. Ain't nothing of man capable of conquering sin. Christ already has. Let Him handle his business and keep your emotions out the way.

Again, what would you know?

What would you know? Are you one of these people who keep choosing to fornicate because of emotions?

And if God is such a Mighty Counselor, why does he treat those people who suffer with such a hopeless issue? (And don't bring in the crap about not wanting to be changed again)

Its only hopeless to those who desire fornication more than they desire Christ. Ain't no need to be getting mad at God just because those who want to fornicate want to do it more than they want to serve Christ.

[/COLOR]And to what do you say to those who are righteous, do follow Christ, and yet are not sustained? They aren't "true Christians"?

God is not a man that He should lie. If you're going to Him for sustaining, he'll sustain you. If you ain't being sustained it's because you didn't cast your cares on Him.

At least one can see results with a psychologist.

So because you lack faith in that which is unseen, you trust the results over God?

How many times do you have to be told that sexual orientation is not a sin?

Go back and read. I'm the one who has corrected people in several threads about sexual orientation not being a sin

One can be tormented by their attractions without ever touching another human being.

Then perhaps one needs to fill his time with things other than those that feed his attraction.

If marriage is illegal, how does a homosexual have intimacy without doing it outside of marriage?

There's more to intimacy than sex.

If only you can grasp how horribly wrong you are. Again, one can be suicidal, depressed, lonely, etc. without ever touching another human being. Clearly fornication is not the issue, but as Texas Lynn points out, you seem to be a little obsessed.

If only you could grasp how you're making excuses to justify folks sin. Clearly the issue is the propensity to choose these desires(lustful attractions and fornication) over Christ.

You both seem to be a little obsessed with making excuses.

There is no choice for anyone but heterosexuals.

SO homoesexuals don't choose to fornicate?

They can't get married and they can't have intimacy outside of marriage. Again, we are left with another catch 22. I really don't think you are grasping this Zaac, you're just being blindly preachy.

You're blindly making excuses to justify sin. AIn't no catch 22. You just looking for a nice catchy phrase to legitimize sin.

Since you seem to know soooo much about other people's sins, and why they don't want to give them up, please tell me what sin I have committed that would lead me to suicide?

It's your sin, so you should know which one would lead you to suicide.

Jesus has conquered one's struggle with their sexual orientation? Really?

Apaprently you're not as clear as you said earlier about orientation not being a sin.

 

[Texas Lynn]

You both seem to be a little obsessed with making excuses.

What in the world would I (or Jase) possibly be "making excuses" for? We have no need whatsoever to justify our position to you. I do not recognize you as having any authority, hence no "excuses" are made.

 

[Zaac]

What in the world would I (or Jase) possibly be "making excuses" for? We have no need whatsoever to justify our position to you. I do not recognize you as having any authority, hence no "excuses" are made.

Then you must be making them for the rest of the world to see. All this "oh they get suicidal and can't have intimacy, and yada yada yada" ain't nothing but a vain attempt to get folks to be led by their "I feels, I believe, and I thinks" instead of by every word that procedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[Polycarp1]

Then you must be making them for the rest of the world to see. All this "oh they get suicidal and can't have intimacy, and yada yada yada" ain't nothing but a vain attempt to get folks to be led by their "I feels, I believe, and I thinks" instead of by every word that procedeth out of the mouth of God.

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (I John 4:20, KJV) You have expressed nothing but hatred, mockery, and contempt for GLBT persons, including Christians, and for those who attempt to understand and be supportive of them.

Perhaps it is time for you to stop denouncing what you regard as their sin, and take a good look at your own?

 

[Zaac]

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (I John 4:20, KJV) You have expressed nothing but hatred, mockery, and contempt for GLBT persons, including Christians, and for those who attempt to understand and be supportive of them.

Perhaps it is time for you to stop denouncing what you regard as their sin, and take a good look at your own?

Nothing but more liberal excuses. I have expressed neither hate, mockery or contempt for anyone. The liberals on and off this board seem to think they can shut folks up by screaming hate or racism about anything that goeas against their viewpoint.

Nobody has a problem with anyone being understanding or supportive. I've spoken to this notion that the struggle of the homosexual being any different from the struggle of every other sinner. And this silly liberal notion that we don't call sin sin just because someone is struggling and you're trying to be understanding and supportive.

It's a spiritual issue and the liberals on this board want it to be an emotional issue.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Then you must be making them for the rest of the world to see. All this "oh they get suicidal and can't have intimacy, and yada yada yada" ain't nothing but a vain attempt to get folks to be led by their "I feels, I believe, and I thinks" instead of by every word that procedeth out of the mouth of God.

I make no excuses. If people ignore the ridiculous assertion "God" said anything at all about sexual orientation then the common good is greatly served. That position is unsupportable and when people stop clinging to that misbegotten notion things will improve.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Nothing but more liberal excuses. I have expressed neither hate, mockery or contempt for anyone. The liberals on and off this board seem to think they can shut folks up by screaming hate or racism about anything that goeas against their viewpoint.

Nobody has a problem with anyone being understanding or supportive. I've spoken to this notion that the struggle of the homosexual being any different from the struggle of every other sinner. And this silly liberal notion that we don't call sin sin just because someone is struggling and you're trying to be understanding and supportive.

It's a spiritual issue and the liberals on this board want it to be an emotional issue.

It is indeed a "spiritual issue" because the promotion of hatred against LGBTs as expressed in public policy advocacy is a soul-destroying cancer eating at the very fiber of the being of those doing it and their families and harming everybody. Crazy Liz brought up somewhere else the situation of the right-wing former State Senator in California whose hateful reaction to his own son's "coming out"telling his parents he was gay) was to push antigay legislation. What a sad situation that was for that particular official, his family, and the people of California. His irrational fear and prejudice led him to push for legislation to harm his own son.

 

[Zaac]

I make no excuses. If people ignore the ridiculous assertion "God" said anything at all about sexual orientation then the common good is greatly served. That position is unsupportable and when people stop clinging to that misbegotten notion things will improve.

If God hasn't spoken, there is no Word of God. Are you now asserting that there is no Word of God?